Live data from Hacker News

Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

irishtimes.com

341–350 of 527 posts

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you feel the same if cats were the only animal whose organs could be harvested?

Absolutely - why wouldn't you? Serious question.

If you were the cat, I bet you'd feel differently.

That's as serious of an answer as I can give. It's the same reason I never neutered my cats, since it felt like a mutilation.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That textbook definition of “valid” only applies to purely deductive arguments. Outside of mathematics, most arguments humans make have a significant non-deductive component (inductive and/or abductive). So, unless we assume that moral reasoning is closer to mathematical reasoning than to the kinds of reasoning we normally use in the sciences and humanities-a very dubious assumption-the formal concept of “validity” y…

> That textbook definition of “valid” only applies to purely deductive arguments. Outside of mathematics, most arguments humans make have a significant non-deductive component (inductive and/or abductive). So, unless we assume that moral reasoning is closer to mathematical reasoning than to the kinds of reasoning we normally use in the sciences and humanities-a very dubious assumption-the formal concept of “validity”…

> I don’t have any sense for the various properties of inductive arguments

You can easily find a lot of resources on this topic, but I can't think of any to particularly recommend. To give my own high-level summary, there are three main types of logical arguments:

- Deductive arguments: from the premises, the conclusion necessarily follows. If the premises are true, and the argument is valid, the conclusion must be true. These are the kinds of arguments found in mathematical proofs, and classical syllogisms such as "All men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal"

- Inductive arguments: from many particulars, infer a generalisation. If all swans so far have been observed to be white, it is reasonable to conclude that "All swans are white" – and the more observations you make, the stronger the conclusion becomes – but that conclusion can never be certain, only probable, because maybe tomorrow someone will discover a black swan, proving the conclusion to be false after all–which is of course what actually happened, when Europeans came to Australia and found swans which were black. (Also, confusingly, "mathematical induction" is a type of deductive argument, not induction in the logical sense.)

- Abductive arguments: from a situation, infer the truth of its most plausible explanation: If I walk into a room and find toys spread all over the floor, I am going to conclude that our four year old did it. Now, maybe some crazy stranger broke into our house, threw toys everywhere, then left – not absolutely impossible, but far less likely than it being our four year old.

The big difference: in deductive arguments, if the argument is good, and the premises are true, the conclusion must be true; in non-deductive arguments, the argument can be good, and the premises can be completely true, and yet the conclusion can still be false. A deductive argument which produces a false conclusion from true premises is by definition a bad one; a non-deductive argument which produces a false conclusion from true premises can still be a perfectly good one, provided that unfortunate outcome is improbable.

The natural sciences use all three, but rely heavily on induction and abduction. Historians primarily use abduction – induction works best for repeatable events, whereas many of the events historians study are essentially unique and unrepeatable (World War II was in many ways a unique event in human history, nothing quite like it had ever happened before, even World War I was different in many ways, and if World War III ever happens it is going to be very different again).

I think a lot of moral reasoning must be non-deductive, because deductive arguments generally deal with certainties, whereas it is quite natural for people to say about moral issues "I think it is probably wrong but I'm not 100% sure". I think moral reasoning often involves some degree of induction – if you repeatedly encounter particular situations which offend your conscience, you are likely to adopt a moral principle which condemns whatever those particular situations have in common – generalising a principle out of particular cases, which is essentially what inductive reasoning is. But, as in all inductive reasoning, you can never be sure that there will not be some case which might convince you that your generalisation needs an exception – a moral black swan.

> This is the first time that I’ve heard of normative epistemology, which I gather is what you are talking about.

Yes, exactly. A lot of the concepts traditionally used in epistemology appear to be normative. For example, in the classical definition of knowledge as "justified true belief", justification appears to be a normative concept – a belief which is justified given some evidence is a belief which one ought to hold (or, at least, one is permitted to hold) given that evidence, a belief which is unjustified given some evidence is a belief which one ought not to hold given that evidence.

> One thing I will say though, thinking about this seems smoother than thinking about normative morality because (I think) I don’t have as many childhood memories of people telling me what I ought to think compared to those of people telling me what I ought to do.

I think a lot of people grow up exposed to conservative religious approaches to morality, which they often experienced as being pushed on them inflexibly and never with any convincing justification–and it is unsurprising many such people become attracted to the idea that "morality is subjective". However, I wonder, is that "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"? Most of these people would feel strongly that genocide, slavery, apartheid, torture, child abuse, theocratic totalitarianism, etc, are immoral – yet, having accepted "morality is subjective", those moral positions they endorse must be just as subjective as those which they've rejected. Subjective morality weakens their own moral positions. Indeed, once you believe that morality is subjective, you can no longer claim (in any objective sense) that anyone else's morality is wrong, including that of various religious conservatives – the most you can consistently say about their morality is that you don't like it – but why should they (or anyone else) care about what you like?

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#343
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the Post complaint (echoed elsewhere) is basically a call for having a social credit score that can say “you’re not a good person, so we’re not going to let the doctors save you.”

...and the next step would be "we're not going to treat you for Covid because you're not vaccinated".

I’m all for providing telemedicine to those who choose not to be vaccinated against COVID (compared to those who medically can it be vaccinated). But letting them into health care facilities? Nah, get your shots and come back.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#344
post #214
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not same. The non vaccinated are actively choosing to be a danger to people around them. It is like actively carrying concealed unlicensed gun which can silently and anynomously fire at people.

I'm vaccinated myself and basically I have the same opinion as you. But David Bennett also actively chose to stab someone seven times in 1988 - "only" leaving him paralyzed, but probably with the intent to kill him? Ok, he probably served time for that and it was a long time ago, so judicially you can consider him rehabilitated. My argument was that once you refuse to treat (former) criminals, that's a slippery slope…

Worse? No. The unvaccinated are far more likely to get sick or die as a part of any medical procedure right now just because of the base risk of COVID in hospitals. If you can’t take the first step to protect yourself and others, there’s not much health care providers can do to change your mind.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#345
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Actively' seems to be accurate for the scenario when one is choosing to make body conducive to incubate virus, or already incubating them (albeit unknowingly if asymptomatic). [Edit] And if you meant active in context of 'Active shooter', then still use of the word active is not wrong. Virus laden body is like carrying a concealed gun which is on 'auto pilot', it is actively spraying bullets; it IS active all the wh…

I can't think of a single person I know that hasn't ducked down to the shops to pick something up when they have the flu. By your definition, they are actively attempting to cause harm to others - which is an interesting take.

I haven’t “ducked down to the shops” when I’m ill. It’s not that hard to keep necessities around.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#346

I just want to say huge respect for Dr Mohammad who despite his faith decided to do what is right. It might not be well known but most muslims are raised with strong beliefs, even in educated countries (eg 85% in Pakistan support sharia). God bless Dr mohammad

The recipient is a non-Muslim, so no Sharia-related problems in his case.

AFAIK it is not forbidden for a Muslim to touch pigs, only to eat them. Pigs and dogs are impure, but you can perform ablution afterwards. Muslims normally own hunting and guarding dogs. That would actually be a common problem for Coalition soldiers in Iraq when they tried to enter a village by stealth - lots of barking.

"This impureness nevertheless doesn't imply that one might not touch a pork, but that one might need to wash his hands and maybe even re-do the ablution to be able to pray after touching it."

https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/48791/is-it-haram-...

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#347

I just want to say huge respect for Dr Mohammad who despite his faith decided to do what is right. It might not be well known but most muslims are raised with strong beliefs, even in educated countries (eg 85% in Pakistan support sharia). God bless Dr mohammad

I don't know how many Muslims you're friends with but I wouldn't assume without some indication that this was difficult for him. There is a huge variety of beliefs in a population of over a billion adherents. Most of the ones I know have no issue with, for example, picking up a pack of bacon from the store as long as they're not the one expected to eat it.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#348
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did so a pig to human kidney transplant recently however it was on a brain dead man as an initial test. Probably soon it be on a living patient. As a person on a kidney transplant waitlist, it given me some hope for the future. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-01-pig-to-human-transpla...

Quoted post unavailable.

Might as well then also get consent from cadavers to do autopsy lmao.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely - why wouldn't you? Serious question.

If you were the cat, I bet you'd feel differently. That's as serious of an answer as I can give. It's the same reason I never neutered my cats, since it felt like a mutilation.

Yes, but if I were a cat I wouldn't lick my own anus and yet cats happily do that - my opinion on what I would or wouldn't like as a cat is not really relevant.

My point is - we are not cats, and cats aren't humans. They deserve good treatment, respect and all the love they can get - but at the end of the day they are not humans and should not be treated as such.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#350
post #21

I'm a full on speciesist. let's do more of this. since we're already eating them I feel like this even a more reasonable usage of their lives. can we do kidneys next please? we can basically shut down most dialysis clinics after that.

I'm vegetarian and have no issue with using animals for medical purposes like this. It's one thing to kill for pleasure as in fur, cosmetics and food, but quite another to kill an animal to save a human life. I am pretty sure even most vegans would be happy to accept an animal death to save their own life, even a pet.

Similarly, I guess, I was vegan but I had to stop that diet as it caused severe health problems for me.

Post reply on HN