Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The history of the end of poverty has just begun

ourworldindata.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 449 posts

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#341

Post by nickpp »

glogla wrote: post #312
nickpp wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd rather be poor in any european country Bulgaria welcomes you

Bulgaria has free healthcare and university education. People in Bulgaria are also very unlikely to be killed by police or die in a mass shooting. Bulgaria also has less people incarcerated per capita than the US. Bulgarian workers get mandatory 20 day of PTO a year. I could imagine lot of people who would think they are better off there than in the US. E: There's of course a lot of things that aren't great about Bul…

> I could imagine lot of people who would think they are better off there than in the US.

I love Bulgaria (beautiful country, great people) but it's just your imagination: there are still more Bulgarians emigrating to the USA than Americans to Bulgaria. Lots more. Like almost one-way street, really.

Poor minority Walmart employees having no idea how good they would have it in Bulgaria instead...

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#342

Post by rogue7 »

danschmitt wrote: post #24

It is always nice to see such narratives based on robust data. For similar stories backed by data I can also recommend the book "Factfulnes" by Hans Rosling [1]. When we talk about basic needs, our global community is making tremendous progress. At the same time, we should not forget that the same system that abolishes poverty also creates enormous inequality, which not only makes people unhappier, but also leads to…

This book is very biased, see for instance the "one-hump world": https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/3/17/two-hump-world

For a full review (in french): https://paulboosz.github.io/2020/analyse-nouveaux-optimistes...

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#344

Post by southerntofu »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #222
guerrilla wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The homeless issue in the US is much more of a drug addiction and alcoholism problem than a down on one's luck problem. Something like 90% of the homeless are in that category. Where'd you hear that? I've been watching a lot of Soft White Underbelly, interviews with people on Skid Row, and that doesn't really seem to be the case in general although there are a few [1]. Invisible People also does interviews with hom…

The percent of chronic homeless in the drug/substance abuse bucket is pretty high, but it’s like comparing the people visible on the streets (chronic) vs someone who ran out of money is and is crashing on a couch or living in their car. The problem is treating both kinds of homeless equally: they have completely different problems with completely different solutions. Give the chronic homeless just housing and they’ll…

> The percent of chronic homeless in the drug/substance abuse bucket is pretty high

That's true, but correlation does not equal causation. Many rich people have drugs/mental issues, too. Some drugs are basically a social status symbol in some circles (cocaine, champagne and some other fancy alcohols, for example).

Many people become homeless due to reasons unrelated to drugs. Once you're homeless, basic survival becomes an every day struggle and it's not hard to see how mind-altering substances can be very appealing in this situation.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#345

Post by csee »

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #300
h0l0cube wrote: post #254

Could we classify the lives in tribes and villages prior to civilisation as "poverty"? Or did "poverty" begin with civilisation?

This is exactly what I had in mind, thanks for asking. Are those tribes who are still living a secluded life in the forests of Amazon or say even those who are completely isolated like in Indian ocean islands considered poor? They've had everything they need and unless there's no external interference(Humans, Weather events e.g. Tsunami) they're living a successful life. Also I have serious issues with the term 'Civi…

Well they lack basic medical care so no they don't have everything they need.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#346

Post by [deleted] »

noahtallen wrote: post #144
WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings. This can’t be true. Just look at the homelessness situation across the US. No shelter, no income, no sanitation. That is certainly worse quality of life than a king. You must starting your definition of poor quite a ways up the income scale. Maybe you could make make an argument for solidly middle class and above? Even then, there are even a l…

[deleted]

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#347

Post by southerntofu »

aperson_hello wrote: post #184
guerrilla wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The homeless issue in the US is much more of a drug addiction and alcoholism problem than a down on one's luck problem. Something like 90% of the homeless are in that category. Where'd you hear that? I've been watching a lot of Soft White Underbelly, interviews with people on Skid Row, and that doesn't really seem to be the case in general although there are a few [1]. Invisible People also does interviews with hom…

It's more like 50%: https://www.samhsa.gov/sites/default/files/programs_campaign... And 30% have severe mental health issues (same source). Treating those issues solves only ~half the problem though (though that's probably 90% of the visible problem). The rest (to your point) is that it's really hard to afford to get a home when you don't have one. I'd blame zoning as the biggest issue here. Boarding homes and micro-…

> I'd blame zoning as the biggest issue here.

I blame private property as the biggest issue here. Empty dwellings outnumber homeless people at least 10-to-1 in the Global North (France, UK, USA..). The fact that media and corporations pretend that's not a problem and the only solution to homelessness is to build more housing tells a lot about what's wrong with "our" approach to problem.

If we lived in a democracy where people can decide for themselves locally, homelessness would be a non-issue. As a former squatter myself, i know for sure if we voted in my neighborhood for/against cracking empty housing to provide housing for all, over 90% of people would support it. If the people in power had the will to do anything about homelessness, by simply ordering police not to evict squats (unless someone squatted a person's residence while they were on vacation, which under french law is a "house theft" crime, not "squatting") in less than 72h we could rehouse all the homeless people and give them proper sanitation.

The problem is the political class and their watchdogs (media, police) are only interested in protecting banks, corporations and wealthy individuals. They couldn't care less about homelessness or people who can't afford to eat.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#348

Post by southerntofu »

WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

That's definitely not true. That's a bias with some social researcher focusing on certain metrics such as income and education level. But in many societies (especially prior to that period), quality of life was rather unrelated to anything measurable: mutualizing resources on a local scale provides quality of life improvements which cannot be measured by looking at commercial activity (money).

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#349

Post by nickpp »

mbrodersen wrote: post #263
t-3 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homeless. In medieval times, everyone was poor, and one person's life had no value to another. In modern times, I can be relatively safe from violence and predation, recieve shelter from compassionate strangers almost anywhere, get medical care for free with government benefits or through the emergency room, and if I'm really doing bad, go to jail and get three hots and a cot. Sounds vastly preferable to dying by 40…

I would prefer to be a medival king. Easy access to having sex with the most beautiful woman in the world, beheading people I don't like, fixing laws I don't agree with, having people willing to do anything to please me etc. Lots of perks!

> Easy access to having sex with the most beautiful woman in the world

Which can give you any number of incurable dick-rotting diseases (because no antibiotics) or give birth to an unwanted heir (because no birth control).

> beheading people I don't like

Thus making enemies that will hunt you in your sleep (because no rule-of-law).

> fixing laws I don't agree with

Then having to keep fixing them to repair unwanted side effects (because no law-making experts).

> having people willing to do anything to please me

And having no way to know if those people are really on your side or are just biding their time until their turn to do you in and take your place (because no quiet suburban lifestyle).

If you thinks these are perks, you are watching too much Fantasy.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#350

Post by southerntofu »

amadvance wrote: post #325
mbrodersen wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the 40 million Americans living below the poverty line with zero access to health care or dental services are living like kings? Really? May I suggest that you talk to some of them and ask if they feel like Kings/Queens?

Just consider antibiotics. A medieval king could die for a banal infection.

There's a fallacy at play here. Some kings died due to lack of knowledge how to treat them. In the US, poor people die from diseases we know how to treat but society refuses to treat them because they don't have money.

Measuring the increase in possible outcomes is irrelevant if you don't take into considerable how accessible/affordable those outcomes are. It's just like if you said "but medieval kings didn't have space travel" because you see Jeff Bezos going into space as a sign of social progress for the rest of us.

Post reply on HN