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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#321

Post by pasquinelli »

kryogen1c wrote: post #189
danschmitt wrote: post #24

It is always nice to see such narratives based on robust data. For similar stories backed by data I can also recommend the book "Factfulnes" by Hans Rosling [1]. When we talk about basic needs, our global community is making tremendous progress. At the same time, we should not forget that the same system that abolishes poverty also creates enormous inequality, which not only makes people unhappier, but also leads to…

> creates enormous inequality i dont know why everyone keeps getting away with statement like this. the proposition of equality as a meaningful metric is absurd at every level of examination. no one is equal to anyone else except on the most trivial and simplistic terms about anything. do you feel inferior to rich people? do you feel superior to poor people? what hogwash. i reject this axiom that inequality is bad. p…

creates inequality is kind of like a cop saying the suspect became deceased. i'd change from "creates inequality" to "relies on exploitation."

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#322

Post by avgcorrection »

kragen wrote: post #250
boucher wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inequality has nothing to do with feeling superior or inferior to others (though, our culture absolutely does encourage those beliefs). In a world with limited resources, huge levels of inequality necessarily means that a small group of people are consuming vastly more of the available resources than everyone else. It also tends to concentrate political power in the same small group. Many people would say there is so…

The world has limited natural resources, but it doesn't have limited human welfare or enjoyment or wealth. Moreover, natural resources are not consumed, except for helium, energy, and the contents of spacecraft. The natural resources in a big plate glass window are a double handful of sand. The natural resources in a Rembrandt are the sunlight and rainfall needed to grow a sheaf of flax and a handful of powdered colo…

> Poverty comes from lack of opportunity (usually due to centralization of control), perverse incentives (often due to lack of centralization of control), ignorance, delusion, and other kinds of mental problems, not from limited natural resources or from "a small group of people consuming vastly more."

“Mental problems”—did people fail to Think and Grow Rich or something?

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#323

Post by Kbelicius »

BurningFrog wrote: post #271
boucher wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inequality has nothing to do with feeling superior or inferior to others (though, our culture absolutely does encourage those beliefs). In a world with limited resources, huge levels of inequality necessarily means that a small group of people are consuming vastly more of the available resources than everyone else. It also tends to concentrate political power in the same small group. Many people would say there is so…

The world has limited resources, but that doesn't mean wealth is limited. People create wealth by work and trade.

How does it not mean that wealth is limited? I mean, how can you have more wealth than the value of world resources?

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#324

Post by ricardobeat »

roenxi wrote: post #316
Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what I had in mind, thanks for asking. Are those tribes who are still living a secluded life in the forests of Amazon or say even those who are completely isolated like in Indian ocean islands considered poor? They've had everything they need and unless there's no external interference(Humans, Weather events e.g. Tsunami) they're living a successful life. Also I have serious issues with the term 'Civi…

That seems like a simple question - yes, they are poor. It would be miserable and horrific, and they'd be happy every day they were healthy because it would be a pleasant surprise. And there is nothing romantic about being poor and ignorant at the same time. Even if hot running water is now considered a colonial luxury.

Why do you assume tribes living off-grid are miserable? That doesn't seem to be the case unless they are stricken by a particular disease / natural events, usually they appear to be very content with a simple life. That you would be miserable in their condition does not tell us anything about happiness.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#325

Post by amadvance »

mbrodersen wrote: post #191
WalterBright wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The homeless issue in the US is much more of a drug addiction and alcoholism problem than a down on one's luck problem. Something like 90% of the homeless are in that category. > Who needs plumbing when you have a servant to bring you whatever you want? I like hot showers. I bet you do, too. Besides, what do you think happens to kings when they get a toothache? No anesthetic, nothing to be done except an idiot with a…

So the 40 million Americans living below the poverty line with zero access to health care or dental services are living like kings? Really? May I suggest that you talk to some of them and ask if they feel like Kings/Queens?

Just consider antibiotics. A medieval king could die for a banal infection.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#327

Post by seer »

roenxi wrote: post #316
Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what I had in mind, thanks for asking. Are those tribes who are still living a secluded life in the forests of Amazon or say even those who are completely isolated like in Indian ocean islands considered poor? They've had everything they need and unless there's no external interference(Humans, Weather events e.g. Tsunami) they're living a successful life. Also I have serious issues with the term 'Civi…

That seems like a simple question - yes, they are poor. It would be miserable and horrific, and they'd be happy every day they were healthy because it would be a pleasant surprise. And there is nothing romantic about being poor and ignorant at the same time. Even if hot running water is now considered a colonial luxury.

The book “Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging” examines this in detail. By looking at places where people were thrown back from civilization (wars, famine) and historical examples where pre-industrial civs lived alongside colonial powers. Quite fascinating really.

For example the book explores the fact that much more europeans went into the indian tribal societies in colonial America than the other way around. As well as people longing for the times they were under siege (Saraevo) as they remember the closeness and belonging those situation caused. Fascinating really.

And it also has the virtue of being short - recommended.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#328

Post by kragen »

avgcorrection wrote: post #322
kragen wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world has limited natural resources, but it doesn't have limited human welfare or enjoyment or wealth. Moreover, natural resources are not consumed, except for helium, energy, and the contents of spacecraft. The natural resources in a big plate glass window are a double handful of sand. The natural resources in a Rembrandt are the sunlight and rainfall needed to grow a sheaf of flax and a handful of powdered colo…

> Poverty comes from lack of opportunity (usually due to centralization of control), perverse incentives (often due to lack of centralization of control), ignorance, delusion, and other kinds of mental problems, not from limited natural resources or from "a small group of people consuming vastly more." “Mental problems”—did people fail to Think and Grow Rich or something?

Listen, I don't know if you have anyone in your family with mental problems, but it's very common for them to result in poverty, despite having what would appear to be opportunity, well-aligned incentives, knowledge, and correct beliefs. And I really don't think this is a thing you should be making fun of.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#329

Post by avgcorrection »

WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

Thank you. I will add that to my list of fantastically bad quotes.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#330

Post by helpfulmandrill »

gruez wrote: post #66
coldtea wrote: post #48

One problem, other comments hint on the same thing, is that poverty is not an absolute, it's relative. We would consider ourselves poor if we lived as a family of five in a tiny early 20th New York immigrant's appartment, even though we'd be much better off than a feudal peasant living in a straw hut with no electricity and a distant water well (the "working class" of its day), which in turn would be must better off…

> One problem, other comments hint on the same thing, is that poverty is not an absolute, it's relative. Seems like you're just trying to redefine "poverty" to mean "income inequality". Income inequality is an issue that's worth tackling, but it's also important to recognize absolute standards of living conditions. We already have a term for income inequality, it's called income inequality. It's unclear why you want…

Relative poverty is a pretty old and standard way of defining poverty. Adam Smith, for example:

> “A linen shirt … is, strictly speaking, not a necessary of life. The Greeks and Romans lived, I suppose, very comfortably though they had no linen. But in the present times, through the greater part of Europe, a creditable day-labourer would be ashamed to appear in public without a linen shirt, the want of which would be supposed to denote that disgraceful degree of poverty which, it is presumed, nobody can well fall into without extreme bad conduct.”

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