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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

ourworldindata.org

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#251

Post by mettamage »

coldtea wrote: post #48

One problem, other comments hint on the same thing, is that poverty is not an absolute, it's relative. We would consider ourselves poor if we lived as a family of five in a tiny early 20th New York immigrant's appartment, even though we'd be much better off than a feudal peasant living in a straw hut with no electricity and a distant water well (the "working class" of its day), which in turn would be must better off…

> that poverty is not an absolute

In almost every country in the world there are people that:

Are almost dying because of a lack of food

Are almost dying because of being outside at the wrong time

I would call that poor.

I am speaking from second hand experience. And I am from The Netherlands, a country with a fairly good welfare system if you know how to deal with a bureaucratic system. There are a few people that can’t deal with that because of whatever undiagnosed issues they have.

People with a low and livable income are IMO not poor, depending on if there is a good healthcare system.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#252

Post by DarylZero »

marcusverus wrote: post #84
otikik wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will answer your question with another leading question: What do you think created poverty in the first place?

I think your question assumes that poverty is somehow unnatural, as though the human animal is born with plenty and must be driven to poverty by some external force. But the masses have lived in poverty since the beginning of time,[0] because poverty is the state of nature. Anyone who says different is trying to sell you something. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty#historical-povert...

The human animal has to be restricted from accessing natural resources by other human animals in order to be made poor.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#253

Post by DarylZero »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #61
gitfan86 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that If basic food and clothing and shelter and internet and housing were free, the economy would be very different.

But would it? In most of the developed world health care is free, and it's more expensive than food, clothing & internet, and almost as expensive as shelter.

Yes, homelessness is the whip of modern capitalism, if you remove it, then the entire foundation of behavioral control is gone.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#255

Post by DarylZero »

visarga wrote: post #75
gitfan86 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that If basic food and clothing and shelter and internet and housing were free, the economy would be very different.

Even with perfect automation you'd still need to provide the raw materials, that means it can't be free. Unless you recycle perfectly.

Extracting the raw materials can also be automated.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#256

Post by DarylZero »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #99
bryanlarsen wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition we already live in a post-scarcity economy. Food & housing are extremely plentiful in the US. We consume over 3600 calories per person, and waste a similar amount. Livestock eat over 10,000 calories per person. We have over 800 square feet of living space per capita.

Ok sure but all those things are still subject to whatever artificial scarcity the market needs in order to survive, which is not the case in Star Trek. The fact that there is no money in that world is not a byproduct, it is the whole thing. Whatever is scarce or not follows from that, not the other way around. Granted, especially as you get later on, star trek is not the best at realizing its original conceit. But I…

We should call ours an "artificial scarcity economy."

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#257

Post by [deleted] »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #128
goodpoint wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Star Trek TNG is very clearly post-scarcity. It fits the definition completely, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy --- Post-scarcity is a theoretical economic situation in which most goods can be produced in great abundance with minimal human labor needed, so that they become available to all very cheaply or even freely --- Post-scarcity does not require all goods/services to be infinitely abunda…

In the US today a bushel of wheat (60 pounds) is worth $7.50 and contains about a month's worth of calories, for about half an hour worth of the average American's labour. Chinese factories produce widgets for pennies. Under that definiton either both the 24th and the 22nd centuries are post-scarcity or neither are. Trekonomics writer Manu Saadia has a much better definition: "Post-scarcity is not so much a matter of…

[deleted]

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#258

Post by ouid »

willjp wrote: post #135

I'd be much happier if UBI proposals were higher. Living on ~900$/month nowadays would be difficult. 20 years ago I was able to split rent for a tiny concrete windowless-basement-bedroom for 450$/mo, trimmed my grocery/cleaning bill down to 100$/mo by eating nothing but rice, beans, and frozen vegetables, 120$/mo for a phone and internet (which I consider essential), and another ~80$/mo in bus tickets. That's ~750$/m…

Look, UBI isn't for living comfortably. UBI is just a knob for producing more negotiating power for laborers. It's the means to quit a job and look for a new one. It's not about living a happy work free life. That doesn't make any sense.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#259

Post by ouid »

kashkhan wrote: post #165
zozbot234 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$900/mo. is near the high-end of the feasible UBI range. If you want to live on your UBI, it's pretty much expected that you'd move to the lowest-cost feasible area, and content yourself with a somewhat dignified subsistence. UBI has by far the most potential as a supplemental income to low-skilled, entry-level or low-intensity work. The key aim is to make it seamless for people to enter or leave the job market as th…

there is no feasibility limit for UBI. The limit is inflation and that is decided by the component costs of products. For example if you put $30T into UBI, and everyone saved it, you wouldn't have any inflation.

Inflation isn't a limit on UBI either...

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#260

Post by mbrodersen »

WalterBright wrote: post #213
mbrodersen wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Why don’t you ask homeless people with no access to shelter, health care or dental care if they feel like Kings/Queens?

They can walk into any emergency room and get free care. Kings had zero access.

Only the minimum legally required (for them to not immediately die). After which they are shown the door.
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