The history of the end of poverty has just begun • Hacker News Board

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#241

Post by ausbah » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:37 AM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #189

danschmitt wrote: post #24

It is always nice to see such narratives based on robust data. For similar stories backed by data I can also recommend the book "Factfulnes" by Hans Rosling [1]. When we talk about basic needs, our global community is making tremendous progress. At the same time, we should not forget that the same system that abolishes poverty also creates enormous inequality, which not only makes people unhappier, but also leads to…

> creates enormous inequality i dont know why everyone keeps getting away with statement like this. the proposition of equality as a meaningful metric is absurd at every level of examination. no one is equal to anyone else except on the most trivial and simplistic terms about anything. do you feel inferior to rich people? do you feel superior to poor people? what hogwash. i reject this axiom that inequality is bad. p…

and the system thats causes such unfairness isn't perpetuated / influenced by those with massive amounts of wealth more than everyone else?

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#242

Post by DarylZero » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:39 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #215

guerrilla wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They'll get treated for free in emergency rooms. Um, no, that is not free in the US. You can go into serious debt that way.

They still get free treatment, regardless of their debt. The hospitals just write off those debts, it's covered by the high prices they charge the patients who can pay.

Defaulting on a debt isn't the same thing as getting something for free.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#243

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:41 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #198

austincheney wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence that building more housing has ever reduced housing prices or that it will do so into the future.

This is the opposite of true. The evidence that building more housing decreases prices is overwhelming: https://www.lewis.ucla.edu/research/market-rate-development-... > To be clear, this debate is not about whether new housing can reduce housing prices overall. At this point, that idea isn’t really in doubt. There’s good reason to believe that in regions with high housing demand, building more housing can help keep…

> Tokyo has dirt cheap rent compared to the states

You can rent small two and a half tatami sized apartments in Tokyo that wouldn’t even be legal to let in most of the west. Is that what they mean by reducing zoning rules?

Also, by basically mandating that all housing be rebuilt every 20-30 years, Tokyo effectively prevents speculation on residential real estate (housing depreciates as it gets older, negating land appreciation to some extent).

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#244

Post by DarylZero » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:42 AM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #223

spaetzleesser wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.” That may be true from a purely materialistic point of view but a lot of the unpleasantness of being poor is stress. Not knowing if you can feed your children tomorrow, you may become homeless, if you work minimum wage you often get treated like crap. Medieval kings didn’t have to worry about that. In short, this is a pretty condescending line…

You don't think there are any stressors related to being king? People constantly wanted to take your power, it isn't like the subjects are bound to serve, there are no contracts or laws or anything ensuring people do what you want, your only way to control things is to convince others do what you want. If you aren't careful you'd get poisoned, or hanged or ran out of the country from a coup or rebellion. Not to menti…

> it isn't like the subjects are bound to serve

What?

> your only way to control things is to convince others do what you want

LOL what?

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#245

Post by t-3 » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:42 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #229

t-3 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

140% of the poverty line doesn't even reach $20,000.

> 140% of the poverty line doesn't even reach $20,000. Median household size is around 2.5. Poverty line for household size 2 is $17,420, for 3 is $21,960.

And for an individual is 12,280.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#246

Post by DarylZero » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:45 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #231

rhcom2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. That's a pretty big assertion without evidence especially with America's awful healthcare system and it's smaller safety net than some other countries.

For big evidence, look at the hundreds of thousands of people tramping thousands of miles just for a shot at getting into America.

Are you somehow unaware of migration into Europe?

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#247

Post by froh » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:55 AM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #189

danschmitt wrote: post #24

It is always nice to see such narratives based on robust data. For similar stories backed by data I can also recommend the book "Factfulnes" by Hans Rosling [1]. When we talk about basic needs, our global community is making tremendous progress. At the same time, we should not forget that the same system that abolishes poverty also creates enormous inequality, which not only makes people unhappier, but also leads to…

> creates enormous inequality i dont know why everyone keeps getting away with statement like this. the proposition of equality as a meaningful metric is absurd at every level of examination. no one is equal to anyone else except on the most trivial and simplistic terms about anything. do you feel inferior to rich people? do you feel superior to poor people? what hogwash. i reject this axiom that inequality is bad. p…

Yes! It's the level of inequality that's problematic, not the inequality per se.

People are not the same, but they weigh the same.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#248

Post by nopenopenopeno » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:56 AM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #189

danschmitt wrote: post #24

It is always nice to see such narratives based on robust data. For similar stories backed by data I can also recommend the book "Factfulnes" by Hans Rosling [1]. When we talk about basic needs, our global community is making tremendous progress. At the same time, we should not forget that the same system that abolishes poverty also creates enormous inequality, which not only makes people unhappier, but also leads to…

> creates enormous inequality i dont know why everyone keeps getting away with statement like this. the proposition of equality as a meaningful metric is absurd at every level of examination. no one is equal to anyone else except on the most trivial and simplistic terms about anything. do you feel inferior to rich people? do you feel superior to poor people? what hogwash. i reject this axiom that inequality is bad. p…

> the proposition of equality as a meaningful metric is absurd at every level of examination

In industrial capitalist societies, measures of inequality are historically the best predictors of political crisis, including but not limited to the the election of Hitler and the Holocaust. I think people have plenty of good reason to consider them.

You are confusing the metric of inequality with the ideal of equality. These are very different things. Statistical measures of inequality have always been highly correlated with measures of societal health in some way or another, but different measures mean different things depending on the type of society it is. For example, you are focusing on the very poor vs. the very rich, but most Americans tend to associate inequality with the size of the middle class.

>the problem doesnt have anything to do with equality. there is a loss of control, of autonomy. no chance of growth or the ability to change your circumstances.

A lot of people think there is a chance for success and spend most of their lives learning there isn’t. They idolize Bezos and Musk because the media does, and guess who runs the media…

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#249

Post by djrobstep » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:58 AM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #189

danschmitt wrote: post #24

It is always nice to see such narratives based on robust data. For similar stories backed by data I can also recommend the book "Factfulnes" by Hans Rosling [1]. When we talk about basic needs, our global community is making tremendous progress. At the same time, we should not forget that the same system that abolishes poverty also creates enormous inequality, which not only makes people unhappier, but also leads to…

> creates enormous inequality i dont know why everyone keeps getting away with statement like this. the proposition of equality as a meaningful metric is absurd at every level of examination. no one is equal to anyone else except on the most trivial and simplistic terms about anything. do you feel inferior to rich people? do you feel superior to poor people? what hogwash. i reject this axiom that inequality is bad. p…

What are you talking about? Equality is a well-established concept. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or that people don’t believe in it.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#250

Post by kragen » Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 5:59 AM UTC

boucher wrote: post #207

kryogen1c wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> creates enormous inequality i dont know why everyone keeps getting away with statement like this. the proposition of equality as a meaningful metric is absurd at every level of examination. no one is equal to anyone else except on the most trivial and simplistic terms about anything. do you feel inferior to rich people? do you feel superior to poor people? what hogwash. i reject this axiom that inequality is bad. p…

Inequality has nothing to do with feeling superior or inferior to others (though, our culture absolutely does encourage those beliefs). In a world with limited resources, huge levels of inequality necessarily means that a small group of people are consuming vastly more of the available resources than everyone else. It also tends to concentrate political power in the same small group. Many people would say there is so…

The world has limited natural resources, but it doesn't have limited human welfare or enjoyment or wealth. Moreover, natural resources are not consumed, except for helium, energy, and the contents of spacecraft. The natural resources in a big plate glass window are a double handful of sand. The natural resources in a Rembrandt are the sunlight and rainfall needed to grow a sheaf of flax and a handful of powdered colorful rocks. The natural resources in a bottle of the finest wine are half a handful of sand, and the sunlight and rainfall needed to grow a bunch of grapes. The natural resources in an anti-malaria bed net are what is needed to grow a single cotton plant. A Rolls-Royce contained the same natural resources as a large Yugo.

Poverty comes from lack of opportunity (usually due to centralization of control), perverse incentives (often due to lack of centralization of control), ignorance, delusion, and other kinds of mental problems, not from limited natural resources or from "a small group of people consuming vastly more."