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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#181

Post by guerrilla »

WalterBright wrote: post #151
Frondo wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America's poor can't travel (it costs! even if you bus it, you need time off work, a place to stay, etc), they can't have gourmet food delivered (it costs!), they can't fetch a driver (it costs!), they often can't drive themselves (cars cost!). They also generally can't afford medical care, child care, a wide variety of leisure activities (plays, shows, even movies cost!) They do have access to information and music,…

> America's poor can't travel How do you explain the hundreds of thousands of destitute migrants tramping thousands of miles to get here? They'll get treated for free in emergency rooms. Medieval doctors were worse than no medical care at all, ever. > even movies cost! During the Depression, the movie houses were full of people sleeping, as they were cheaper than a hotel.

> They'll get treated for free in emergency rooms.

Um, no, that is not free in the US. You can go into serious debt that way.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#182

Post by cjbgkagh »

aperson_hello wrote: post #173
maerF0x0 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we refuse to build more of it We also refuse to move to cheaper places. I still think from time to time, "what's stopping 10k smart young people from just moving into empty land?"

In one word: Infrastructure. Roads and water and sewer and electrical lines are expensive. The better question is: What's stopping those same 10k smart young people from moving to Detroit?

Land taxes

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#183

Post by TheCoelacanth »

rhcom2 wrote: post #49
WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. That's a pretty big assertion without evidence especially with America's awful healthcare system and it's smaller safety net than some other countries.

Everywhere in the world had an awful healthcare system during the time period they're talking about.

Germany had made a few baby steps towards socialized healthcare at the very end of the 19th century, but other than that socialized healthcare systems didn't start until the 20th century and universal coverage not until after World War II.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#184

Post by aperson_hello »

guerrilla wrote: post #171
WalterBright wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The homeless issue in the US is much more of a drug addiction and alcoholism problem than a down on one's luck problem. Something like 90% of the homeless are in that category. > Who needs plumbing when you have a servant to bring you whatever you want? I like hot showers. I bet you do, too. Besides, what do you think happens to kings when they get a toothache? No anesthetic, nothing to be done except an idiot with a…

> The homeless issue in the US is much more of a drug addiction and alcoholism problem than a down on one's luck problem. Something like 90% of the homeless are in that category. Where'd you hear that? I've been watching a lot of Soft White Underbelly, interviews with people on Skid Row, and that doesn't really seem to be the case in general although there are a few [1]. Invisible People also does interviews with hom…

It's more like 50%: https://www.samhsa.gov/sites/default/files/programs_campaign...

And 30% have severe mental health issues (same source).

Treating those issues solves only ~half the problem though (though that's probably 90% of the visible problem). The rest (to your point) is that it's really hard to afford to get a home when you don't have one.

I'd blame zoning as the biggest issue here. Boarding homes and micro-apartments are effectively banned in most cities. Meaning that the hurdle to go from homeless to not homeless is way higher than it should be. Instead of having to scrounge up a couple hundred bucks for a month's worth of housing, you're looking at a thousand or more.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#185

Post by guerrilla »

aperson_hello wrote: post #184
guerrilla wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The homeless issue in the US is much more of a drug addiction and alcoholism problem than a down on one's luck problem. Something like 90% of the homeless are in that category. Where'd you hear that? I've been watching a lot of Soft White Underbelly, interviews with people on Skid Row, and that doesn't really seem to be the case in general although there are a few [1]. Invisible People also does interviews with hom…

It's more like 50%: https://www.samhsa.gov/sites/default/files/programs_campaign... And 30% have severe mental health issues (same source). Treating those issues solves only ~half the problem though (though that's probably 90% of the visible problem). The rest (to your point) is that it's really hard to afford to get a home when you don't have one. I'd blame zoning as the biggest issue here. Boarding homes and micro-…

This is a survey of drug use, not cause of homelessness. Many people use drugs after they've become homeless because of how terrible and pointless it is. Check out the interviews.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#186

Post by [deleted] »

willjp wrote: post #135

I'd be much happier if UBI proposals were higher. Living on ~900$/month nowadays would be difficult. 20 years ago I was able to split rent for a tiny concrete windowless-basement-bedroom for 450$/mo, trimmed my grocery/cleaning bill down to 100$/mo by eating nothing but rice, beans, and frozen vegetables, 120$/mo for a phone and internet (which I consider essential), and another ~80$/mo in bus tickets. That's ~750$/m…

[deleted]

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#187

Post by barry-cotter »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #161
ProfessorLayton wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution to your housing costs isn't increased payments, but cheaper housing. Housing prices are spiraling out of control almost everywhere because we refuse to build more of it through asinine zoning restrictions. High housing costs have such ripple effects on the cost of everything else that it's incredibly frustrating to see everything else but cheaper and more available housing be proposed as a means to help…

Also - giving people money is likely to increase the cost of housing. You could give everyone $1 bajillion dollars a month. The cost of housing would go up until a lot of people are still homeless.

> The cost of housing would go up until a lot of people are still homeless

That’s true if building enough housing to meet demand continues to be illegal.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#188

Post by ModernMech »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #76
the_gastropod wrote: post #22

Dr. Jason Hickel has—I think—a pretty fair criticism of these graphs [1], that I'll try to summarize here: 1. Treating "poverty" as a binary "yes/no" thing, where having > $1.90/day suddenly alleviates you from poverty seems like a bit of a stretch. $1.90/day is probably way too low a number to cover adequate nutrition, shelter, and basic human needs. 2. While the percentage of people in poverty by this measure has d…

#2 is incorrect. The absolute number of people living in extreme poverty was almost 2 billion in 1981, and under 700 million in 2017. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/distribution-of-populatio...

$1.9 per day is extreme poverty, but there are other kinds of poverty as well. I think the article linked in your citation explains it nicely:

https://ourworldindata.org/poverty-at-higher-poverty-lines

> But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t care about what is happening relative to higher poverty lines. The evidence shows that there is a clear and continuous relationship between material deprivation and subjective well-being, so it would be wrong to celebrate shifting daily incomes from $1.89 to $1.91, even if this shift technically means abruptly reducing extreme poverty. People living on $3, $5, or $10 per day also face substantial hardships, and are still living in poverty.

Taking into account these other bands of poverty, you can see the absolute number of people in the lowest bands of poverty has increased from 3.3 billion in 1981 to 4.66 billion in 2017.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#189

Post by kryogen1c »

danschmitt wrote: post #24

It is always nice to see such narratives based on robust data. For similar stories backed by data I can also recommend the book "Factfulnes" by Hans Rosling [1]. When we talk about basic needs, our global community is making tremendous progress. At the same time, we should not forget that the same system that abolishes poverty also creates enormous inequality, which not only makes people unhappier, but also leads to…

> creates enormous inequality

i dont know why everyone keeps getting away with statement like this.

the proposition of equality as a meaningful metric is absurd at every level of examination. no one is equal to anyone else except on the most trivial and simplistic terms about anything.

do you feel inferior to rich people? do you feel superior to poor people? what hogwash. i reject this axiom that inequality is bad.

people don't hate inequality - they hate unfairness. they hate having their house repossesed because they took a loan they couldnt afford while the banks get a taxpayer bailout for making financial decisions THEY couldn't afford. people don't hate gates, jobs, buffet, or bezos; they love and idolize them. but if the system that purports to give commoners a path to wealth like those people instead shackles them with 200k in debt you have to fucking die to get rid of... things start feeling a little rebellious.

the problem doesnt have anything to do with equality. there is a loss of control, of autonomy. no chance of growth or the ability to change your circumstances.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#190

Post by mbrodersen »

WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

Would you rather be a US homeless person living in the streets or a medieval king?
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