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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#121

Post by nickpp »

umvi wrote: post #13
andi999 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus globalisation. What else should it be?

I agree that we largely have capitalism + globalization to thank for across the board wealth increase (or where wealth hasn't increased, the price of commodities has decreased) over the last century. However, state-run welfare programs, social safety nets, automation, etc. also play some role.

Redistributive programs need something to redistribute in the first place, so the merit still belongs to the value creator - capitalism.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#122

Post by nickpp »

hkt wrote: post #112
andi999 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus globalisation. What else should it be?

Well, China has eradicated extreme poverty by means of communism. So that appears to be an option too. I'd be interested to see a relatively detached, objective analysis on the speed and extent to which poverty is alleviated by different social policies. There's some clear variation there that deserves analysis. Edit: misread the post I replied to, "could" as "should".

China tried communism for years without much progress. Only when they allowed (controlled) capitalism they started enjoying the current results.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#123

Post by bryanlarsen »

goodpoint wrote: post #116
bryanlarsen wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition we already live in a post-scarcity economy. Food & housing are extremely plentiful in the US. We consume over 3600 calories per person, and waste a similar amount. Livestock eat over 10,000 calories per person. We have over 800 square feet of living space per capita.

> housing are extremely plentiful ...and therefore extremely cheap? Instead it's extremely expensive and therefore exclusionary. So it is healthcare. Polls clearly show that younger generations feel very unsure about their work, their ability to save, buy a home end even retire and have a pension. The complete opposite of post-scarcity.

Yes, that's my point. In economics a scarce resource is a limited resource. Defining post-scarcity as an abundance of goods is a bad definition, unless the goods are truly unlimited. Neither us nor 24th century Star Trek has post-scarcity. Star Trek TNG has a post-capitalist, non-monetary economy, but it's not post-scarcity.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#124

Post by bryanlarsen »

trcarney wrote: post #93
bryanlarsen wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But would it? In most of the developed world health care is free, and it's more expensive than food, clothing & internet, and almost as expensive as shelter.

health care is not free anywhere, you either pay for it at the point of use or through taxes.

Health care in the developed world ex-US is free in the same sense as the food, clothing and housing is free in gitfan86's comment I was referring to.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#125

Post by goodpoint »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #123
goodpoint wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> housing are extremely plentiful ...and therefore extremely cheap? Instead it's extremely expensive and therefore exclusionary. So it is healthcare. Polls clearly show that younger generations feel very unsure about their work, their ability to save, buy a home end even retire and have a pension. The complete opposite of post-scarcity.

Yes, that's my point. In economics a scarce resource is a limited resource. Defining post-scarcity as an abundance of goods is a bad definition, unless the goods are truly unlimited. Neither us nor 24th century Star Trek has post-scarcity. Star Trek TNG has a post-capitalist, non-monetary economy, but it's not post-scarcity.

Star Trek TNG is very clearly post-scarcity. It fits the definition completely, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy

---

Post-scarcity is a theoretical economic situation in which most goods can be produced in great abundance with minimal human labor needed, so that they become available to all very cheaply or even freely

---

Post-scarcity does not require all goods/services to be infinitely abundant.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#126

Post by WalterBright »

BorisTheBrave wrote: post #118
coldtea wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have access to all the world's information. So? The Kings had access to much more information than they cared about already. > They can travel across continents in a number of hours for less than two weeks wages. A big chunk can't even afford to take a couple of sick days off, lest they be fired, or can't afford to retire and work in their late 60s and 70s in shitty jobs like a Walmart greeter - much less trav…

I don't think you've really thought about how awful the middle ages are. > The Kings had access to much more information than they cared about already. Royals used to have portraits painted and transported just so they could get an idea who the person their arranged marriage with actually looked like. Bet they'd like Facebook. Louis XIV commissioned a more accurate map of france. It took 4 generations to make. The fi…

Pray you don't need a root canal!

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#127

Post by WalterBright »

goodpoint wrote: post #114
WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings. And work two jobs and go bankrupt and die of some treatable disease? I'd rather be poor in any european country or Korea or Japan. Besides, that's a pretty cheeky comparison.

There weren't treatable diseases in medieval times, even if you were king. You either recovered on your own, or you died.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#128

Post by bryanlarsen »

goodpoint wrote: post #125
bryanlarsen wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's my point. In economics a scarce resource is a limited resource. Defining post-scarcity as an abundance of goods is a bad definition, unless the goods are truly unlimited. Neither us nor 24th century Star Trek has post-scarcity. Star Trek TNG has a post-capitalist, non-monetary economy, but it's not post-scarcity.

Star Trek TNG is very clearly post-scarcity. It fits the definition completely, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy --- Post-scarcity is a theoretical economic situation in which most goods can be produced in great abundance with minimal human labor needed, so that they become available to all very cheaply or even freely --- Post-scarcity does not require all goods/services to be infinitely abunda…

In the US today a bushel of wheat (60 pounds) is worth $7.50 and contains about a month's worth of calories, for about half an hour worth of the average American's labour. Chinese factories produce widgets for pennies.

Under that definiton either both the 24th and the 22nd centuries are post-scarcity or neither are.

Trekonomics writer Manu Saadia has a much better definition:

"Post-scarcity is not so much a matter of material wealth or natural bounty, but an organizational option for society".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trekonomics

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#129

Post by [deleted] »

coldtea wrote: post #48

One problem, other comments hint on the same thing, is that poverty is not an absolute, it's relative. We would consider ourselves poor if we lived as a family of five in a tiny early 20th New York immigrant's appartment, even though we'd be much better off than a feudal peasant living in a straw hut with no electricity and a distant water well (the "working class" of its day), which in turn would be must better off…

[deleted]

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#130

Post by [deleted] »

iso1210 wrote: post #2

While there's clearly a lot in the whole $1/day thing, it's not as clear cut. If you live in Sweden on $30 a day and pay $900 a month in rent, that leaves you with just 31 cents a day. Meanwhile if you live in India on $5 a day and pay $50 a month in rent you'd have $3.35 a day left over, and $3 in rural india goes a lot further than $3 in Sweden. Those are of course extreme examples, and the levels of poverty in pla…

[deleted]
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