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Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

frontiersin.org

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Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#2
I'm always leery when I see a paper with a lead author from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. This is a political advocacy organization focused on pushing their policies rather than focusing on evidence based medicine. That doesn't necessarily make this study wrong but they have been known to exaggerate the evidence in favor of plant-based diets.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#3
post #2

I'm always leery when I see a paper with a lead author from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. This is a political advocacy organization focused on pushing their policies rather than focusing on evidence based medicine. That doesn't necessarily make this study wrong but they have been known to exaggerate the evidence in favor of plant-based diets.

Yeah you nailed it. Quote from the paper.

> and diets focusing on whole plant foods and limiting animal foods and processed foods, such as the MIND diet, are proven to reduce AD risk

I'm excited about the potential of the MIND diet. Here is a quote from the study they linked to

> Results: In adjusted proportional hazards models, the second (hazards ratio or HR = 0.65, 95% confidence interval or CI 0.44, 0.98) and highest tertiles (HR = 0.47, 95% CI 0.26, 0.76) of MIND diet scores had lower rates of AD versus tertile 1, whereas only the third tertiles of the DASH (HR = 0.61, 95% CI 0.38, 0.97) and Mediterranean (HR = 0.46, 95% CI 0.26, 0.79) diets were associated with lower AD rates.

That's evidence that suggests, implies, and points in the direction that AD might be reduced by the mind diet. But doesn't even come close to prove it.

I assume the rest of this paper is as sloppy overstating the evidence.

I think there is a place for scientific advocacy, but own it. Don't pretend like you're an unbiased third party trying to find the truth about keto. This review would be better seen as a "Overview of potential risks of ketogenic diets, and possible alternatives."

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#4
I can confirm that the bits of the paper about Seizure Disorders are accurate - my daughter has Dravet Syndrome and has been on the Ketogenic diet for 5 years. Its well established that Keto works well for some seizure disorders (inc Dravet) - see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25524846/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16146451/ - it works about as well as the best AEDs (anti eplileptic drugs) but with fewer side effects. We use it alongside AEDs as well. My daughters Ketogenic diet is actually prescribed and monitored by the NHS, with various prescription foods/ingredients provided. So its very mainstream, this isn't just some random experimental thing I'm trying as a desparate parent. (Although as an aside, as a parent of a dravet kid, you do often feel desparate - its a very challenging condition)

That kind of keto is hard work though - everything my daughter eats is measured and weighed to the gram. Its important to get the right amount of calories too - not too many and not too few - so there's a lot to measure.

What I would say though (and the paper to its credit seems reasonably clear on this) you need serious Keto to get those benefits - my daughters diet is ratio 3.5:1 which means for every gram of protein or carbs there are 3.5g of fat. So essentially the diet is about 77% fat overall, which is hard to do - kindof like everything has to have as much fat as pure butter. You have to be careful at that level - too many ketones and you're heading for a coma. We have a little pin-prick ketone tesing machine, an action plan for what to do if ketones go too high, how to look for the signs etc.

So lets call that 'medical keto'. There's also 'popular keto' which is what you'll get if you google 'keto cookie recipe' - reasonably high fat, reasonably low carb food that may well help people lose weight or feel a bit better or whatever but its nowhere near 3:1 ratio or 4:1 ratio. If I look up a keto recipe and they don't even give me the ratio, I know its 'popular keto'. If its 'medical keto', they'll be telling me the ratio for sure.

In summary: strict high ratio keto works for seizures in enough cases to make it competitive with meds. Its also dangerous if you dont track it carefully. Popular keto such as you see in trendy cookbooks is a different thing and may well be good for some stuff like diets or whatnot.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#5

I can confirm that the bits of the paper about Seizure Disorders are accurate - my daughter has Dravet Syndrome and has been on the Ketogenic diet for 5 years. Its well established that Keto works well for some seizure disorders (inc Dravet) - see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25524846/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16146451/ - it works about as well as the best AEDs (anti eplileptic drugs) but with fewer side ef…

Medical Keto seems like something that is super legit and very interesting. "Popular" keto interests me a lot less.

What is the reason it chemically or physicals works for seizure disorders?

Not to directly compare them but I feel the same way about a lot of rhetoric around CBD - there are a lot of approved and legitimate medical uses but the amount of extra stuff that people claim it does seems like total BS.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#6

I can confirm that the bits of the paper about Seizure Disorders are accurate - my daughter has Dravet Syndrome and has been on the Ketogenic diet for 5 years. Its well established that Keto works well for some seizure disorders (inc Dravet) - see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25524846/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16146451/ - it works about as well as the best AEDs (anti eplileptic drugs) but with fewer side ef…

Medical Keto seems like something that is super legit and very interesting. "Popular" keto interests me a lot less. What is the reason it chemically or physicals works for seizure disorders? Not to directly compare them but I feel the same way about a lot of rhetoric around CBD - there are a lot of approved and legitimate medical uses but the amount of extra stuff that people claim it does seems like total BS.

re: Keto for seizures: They dont actually know why it works. But on keto your cells are working on a completely different energy source so there's whole metabolic chains that are completely different. I think the leading theory is its one of the by-products of those metabolic chains, rather than the ketones themselves. Some say gut bacteria have a role in it too.

re: CBD: Interestingly, Dravet Syndrome is also shown to react fairly well to CBD. If you've heard of the 'Charlottes web' strain of cannabis and all that stuff, that was named after Charlotte Figi who had Dravet Syndrome.

CBD is used quite widely to treat Dravet - there's been a lot of research and there's now an 'official' pharmaceutical CBD called Epidolex https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-176175/epidiolex-oral/det... - approved by the FDA, NHS etc. You can get it on prescription over here.

Theres a certain 'pot cures everything' lobby that have overblown it a bit. It does seem to work but there are side effects and there are other drugs that work just as well or better (with the caveat that with epilepsy, not every patient responds the same to every drug). e.g. Fenfleuramine is another new (or technically, repurposed) drug for Dravet that seems to work better than CBD for most people. Although I have met some Dravet parents who swear by CBD and say they've done great with it. Others say that CBD on its own isn't enough, you need proper cannabis.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#7
The big problem I have with the Keto diet is twofold:

1. People rarely compare it directly to something like a "Real Food" diet - they go from a lot of processed crap to mostly non processed stuff on the outside of the grocery store and then see huge benefits. But I suspect if they just switched to a Real Food diet in the first place they would see most of the same benefits.

2. It completely leaves out almost all legumes and many root vegetables and gourds which are both hugely beneficial and also some of the cheapest / most sustainable calories out there. There is a reason humans domesticated gourds early on - they are easy as hell to grow, tasty, healthy, balanced, and the shells often also provide other benefits.

On top of that the three above food groups are the main sources of high quality prebiotics (not probiotics) which are essential to our gut health and producing both essential fatty acids and Vitamin K2. The FDA just assumes that people meet an RDA value for EFA and K2 based on gut fermentation but this relies on people consuming quality fiber and most importantly specific prebiotics like long chain inulin and resistant starch (which are very different than simple starch and normal inulin). EFA and K2 are intricately involved in immune modulation, gut inflammation, inflammation in general, and all kinds of other processes.

I think we all know that the average person in the west is likely not eating nearly enough of these prebiotics and in addition many have other digestion issues as well. There is a reason scientists call them ESSENTIAL fatty acids and not "kinda sorta important" fatty acids.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#8

I can confirm that the bits of the paper about Seizure Disorders are accurate - my daughter has Dravet Syndrome and has been on the Ketogenic diet for 5 years. Its well established that Keto works well for some seizure disorders (inc Dravet) - see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25524846/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16146451/ - it works about as well as the best AEDs (anti eplileptic drugs) but with fewer side ef…

Medical Keto seems like something that is super legit and very interesting. "Popular" keto interests me a lot less. What is the reason it chemically or physicals works for seizure disorders? Not to directly compare them but I feel the same way about a lot of rhetoric around CBD - there are a lot of approved and legitimate medical uses but the amount of extra stuff that people claim it does seems like total BS.

I did strict, high ratio, keto for 6 months. I did it pretty "clean" too. I almost never strayed above 50g carbs a day and usually stayed under 20g. My fat ratio made up 70% of my diet. No processed foods. Lots of veggies.

My years of indigestion went away (and never came back - it's been 3.5 years since this experiment) Lost 60lbs from 220 to 160. Slept like a log. Like a solid 7-9hrs a night once I was a month in.

All my markers - lipids, metabolic, blood Glucose, etc..went from shit to within norms with LDL slightly elevated.

I had more energy during the day, and way more focus (I'm adhd).

I had to quit bc even when upping my calories to 2,500-3k a day. I was still losing weight.

Also I developed Orthorexia during this process. I became obsessed with making keto versions of bread, taco shells, home made cereal, and started to spend endless amounts of time in the kitchen. When eggs, meat and big ass salads would have done just fine. Even when quitting keto.. Taking nutrition to absurd degrees was common for years. It became a total OCD.

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#9
Something about this article is just fishy to me.

"Very-low-carbohydrate diets may lack vitamins, minerals, fiber, and phytochemicals found in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains (6–8). "

How many vitamins are in non-fortified grains?

"However, findings from a recent trial by Hall et al. suggest that a low-fat vegan diet (10% energy from fat) may be more effective than a ketogenic diet in suppressing appetite (27). "

"Conflict of Interest" "[she is the author of a food and nutrition blog, Veggie Quest]"

Re: Ketogenic Diets and Chronic Disease: Benefits vs. Risks

#10
post #9

Something about this article is just fishy to me. "Very-low-carbohydrate diets may lack vitamins, minerals, fiber, and phytochemicals found in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains (6–8). " How many vitamins are in non-fortified grains? "However, findings from a recent trial by Hall et al. suggest that a low-fat vegan diet (10% energy from fat) may be more effective than a ketogenic diet in suppressing appetite (27).…

How many vitamins are in non-fortified grains?

A quarter-cup serving of wheat berries contains approximately:

    158 calories
    33 grams carbohydrates
    7 grams protein
    1 gram fat
    6 grams dietary fiber
    2 milligrams manganese (97 percent DV)
    34 micrograms selenium (49 percent DV)
    0.25 milligram thiamine (16 percent DV)
    159 milligrams phosphorus (16 percent DV)
    60 milligrams magnesium (15 percent DV)
    2.8 milligrams niacin (14 percent DV)
    0.2 milligram copper (10 percent DV)
    1.7 milligrams iron (10 percent DV)
    1.3 milligrams zinc (9 percent DV)
    0.2 milligram vitamin B6 (8 percent DV)
    21 milligrams folate (5 percent DV)
https://draxe.com/nutrition/wheat-berries/
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