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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#71

Post by zuminator »

throwthere wrote: post #3

I'll ask this kind of leading question that I have my own thoughts about but I want to hear others'-- is it capitalism that is eradicating poverty?

I'd say it's modern technology that's eradicating poverty. You could make the argument that without capitalism we wouldn't have modern technology. But capitalism was around for centuries before we even got to the point where extreme poverty was on the retreat worldwide. And the most efficient engine for the eradication of poverty the world has ever seen, China, is arguably not capitalist. Joseph C. Sternberg, columnist for the WSJ, asserts that, "What makes a system capitalism rather than mere pursuit of capital is the ownership that brings with it both the motive to improve corporate performance (desire for profit) and the means to do so (control of the company’s management)," and argues that since investors in PRC firms have no control over management, it's not true capitalism. [0]

Some might also suggest there's nothing intrinsic to capitalism that ensures that workers will get paid enough to escape poverty, and without parallel advances in the philosophy of human rights, there would no push to eradicate poverty.

[0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-education-stocks-vie-vari...

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#72

Post by beepbooptheory »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #52
the_gastropod wrote: post #22

Dr. Jason Hickel has—I think—a pretty fair criticism of these graphs [1], that I'll try to summarize here: 1. Treating "poverty" as a binary "yes/no" thing, where having > $1.90/day suddenly alleviates you from poverty seems like a bit of a stretch. $1.90/day is probably way too low a number to cover adequate nutrition, shelter, and basic human needs. 2. While the percentage of people in poverty by this measure has d…

Re 5. Much of the global extreme poor are still primarily in a pre-monetary system. Subsistence farming is by its very definition, mostly outside of the monetary economy.

Are you implying that those areas are not affected by point 4?

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#73

Post by throwaway984393 »

WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

There's quite a broad range of "poor" in America. At least medieval kings never ran out of food, which people in food deserts do regularly. And medieval kings would have been quite secure, compared to the extreme violence that makes up daily life in many of America's urban poor communities, which are some of the most dangerous in the world.

I'm thankful that I've gotten to live in Northwest DC, South Chicago, West Baltimore, Oakland. Our country's extremes are often as bad as a war-torn country.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#74

Post by coldtea »

gruez wrote: post #66
coldtea wrote: post #48

One problem, other comments hint on the same thing, is that poverty is not an absolute, it's relative. We would consider ourselves poor if we lived as a family of five in a tiny early 20th New York immigrant's appartment, even though we'd be much better off than a feudal peasant living in a straw hut with no electricity and a distant water well (the "working class" of its day), which in turn would be must better off…

> One problem, other comments hint on the same thing, is that poverty is not an absolute, it's relative. Seems like you're just trying to redefine "poverty" to mean "income inequality". Income inequality is an issue that's worth tackling, but it's also important to recognize absolute standards of living conditions. We already have a term for income inequality, it's called income inequality. It's unclear why you want…

>Seems like you're just trying to redefine "poverty" to mean "income inequality".

No, I'm trying to properly define property, instead of leaving it as a hazy term.

And this includes income inequality, because what's considered poor is not static (see my example regarding the feudal peasant in their hut, the early 20th century immigrant family, or a modern trailer poor).

>It's unclear why you want to redefine "poverty" to also mean "income inequality".

It would have been "unclear" if I haven't already given several arguments for it on the comment you've replied to.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#75

Post by visarga »

gitfan86 wrote: post #51
chongli wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No such thing as a post-scarcity economy, even in the fictional universe of Star Trek. When you have replicators that can produce any food or clothing or small pieces of equipment you need, you end up bartering over planets, star systems, or wormholes [1]. [1] https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Price_(episode)

The point is that If basic food and clothing and shelter and internet and housing were free, the economy would be very different.

Even with perfect automation you'd still need to provide the raw materials, that means it can't be free. Unless you recycle perfectly.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#76

Post by bryanlarsen »

the_gastropod wrote: post #22

Dr. Jason Hickel has—I think—a pretty fair criticism of these graphs [1], that I'll try to summarize here: 1. Treating "poverty" as a binary "yes/no" thing, where having > $1.90/day suddenly alleviates you from poverty seems like a bit of a stretch. $1.90/day is probably way too low a number to cover adequate nutrition, shelter, and basic human needs. 2. While the percentage of people in poverty by this measure has d…

#2 is incorrect. The absolute number of people living in extreme poverty was almost 2 billion in 1981, and under 700 million in 2017.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/distribution-of-populatio...

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#77

Post by beepbooptheory »

bee_rider wrote: post #36
beepbooptheory wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who else would be the ones to eliminate poverty? Fish?

Well the comment I responded to suggested an abstract economic model might do it, so I don't think fish is any less ridiculous.

Ah I see what you mean now. I definitely like your humanist spirit, but I do not think history walks on its head.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#78

Post by chrisco255 »

coldtea wrote: post #58
WalterBright wrote: post #33

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings. Only in some very limited aspects. "Oh, they can eat wild strawberries in winter" or "have access to modern technology whereas a medieval king didn't" and such. The don't have the power of medieval kings, the don't have the wealth of medieval kings, they don't have the estates of medieval kings, the servants and free time of medieval kings, th…

They have access to all the world's information. They can travel across continents in a number of hours for less than two weeks wages. They can push a button on their phone to have gourmet food delivered to their house in under an hour. They can press another button on their phone to fetch a personal driver that will deliver them to any destination. They can choose to drive themselves, of course, and can travel hundreds of miles in an affordable, smooth ride that beats even a gold adorned horse drawn carriage, while streaming music from any decade or century. They can learn almost any skill. They can converse instantly with anyone in the world in a way that beats even magic mirrors of medieval fantasy.

If you had to choose between being Louis XVI or Henry VIII and a middle class American in Cleveland, Ohio, what would you choose?

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#79

Post by the_gastropod »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #38
the_gastropod wrote: post #22

Dr. Jason Hickel has—I think—a pretty fair criticism of these graphs [1], that I'll try to summarize here: 1. Treating "poverty" as a binary "yes/no" thing, where having > $1.90/day suddenly alleviates you from poverty seems like a bit of a stretch. $1.90/day is probably way too low a number to cover adequate nutrition, shelter, and basic human needs. 2. While the percentage of people in poverty by this measure has d…

> Virtually all of this reduction in extreme poverty occurred in China, which makes the notion that this was a triumph of capitalism / neoliberalism kind of silly. How so? Under communism, China ran itself deeply into the ground and tens of millions of people starved to death. Economic reform changed that, in a straightforward triumph of capitalism. When one of the major stimuli to the period of economic reform is th…

China's flavor of capitalism is, indeed, a vast improvement over their communist past. But it includes a lot more state-involvement than the more laissez-faire style of the U.S.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#80

Post by lovich »

RealityVoid wrote: post #56
admax88qqq wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They claim to have adjusted the values for the price differences between countries. Although I'm not sure if rent was included in that adjustment.

You know, it's funny, I see in the price adjusted the US is near the top, with most of the population seeming well off. On the other hand, there is _a lot_ of complaint about poverty in the US, and, well, a lot of unsatisfaction about the income. I honestly don't know what to think anymore. Is the US popoulation really poor or just... unhappy with what they have because they compare with others? I had a short stint i…

Inequality of wealth and/or income is how you get high averages but still see people living in poverty.

Something like 10% of Americans experience food insecurity throughout the year and I’d place that as a pretty basic necessity of life

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