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The history of the end of poverty has just begun

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Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#41

Are we transitioning to post-scarcity economy?

Even Star Trek TNG didn't have a true post-scarcity economy.

At least 5 things were key parameters in their economy and were scarce:

- dilithium crystals, which were used to power ships, and thus also powered the replicators

- Enterprise class ships were definitely scarce/precious

- labour

- land, especially on Earth

- hand-made goods

STTNG didn't have a money economy. That doesn't mean they were post-scarcity.

The closest analogy on today's Earth would be the unmetered water connections that some towns have. Just because the water isn't metered doesn't mean that the water supply is unlimited.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#42
post #18

It’s incredible how wording can be confusing to different readers. The HN title of this post is currently “the end of poverty has just begun” which made me think “just” = “recently”. So I thought the article would be about something that has indicated that the rate of poverty reduction has increased. The URL says “history-of-poverty-has-just-begun” which made me think this is an article about historiography of povert…

Changed to the article title on the website.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#43
post #18

It’s incredible how wording can be confusing to different readers. The HN title of this post is currently “the end of poverty has just begun” which made me think “just” = “recently”. So I thought the article would be about something that has indicated that the rate of poverty reduction has increased. The URL says “history-of-poverty-has-just-begun” which made me think this is an article about historiography of povert…

> “Poverty is only now starting to decline”

More like: progress has been made at extreme poverty ($1.90/day) and now we can upgrade our expectations to start to address basic poverty ($30/day).

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#44
post #18

It’s incredible how wording can be confusing to different readers. The HN title of this post is currently “the end of poverty has just begun” which made me think “just” = “recently”. So I thought the article would be about something that has indicated that the rate of poverty reduction has increased. The URL says “history-of-poverty-has-just-begun” which made me think this is an article about historiography of povert…

I fully agree with you but I'd suggest simply adding the word "only" before "just" in the title, I think that's missing. I.e.: "The end of poverty has only just begun"

Yeah I agree yours is much better

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#45

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

Not if you include adequate housing and freedom from abuse in your calculation.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#47

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

And today's rich are doing even better than that, so there's no harm in taxing their wealth, right?

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#48
One problem, other comments hint on the same thing, is that poverty is not an absolute, it's relative.

We would consider ourselves poor if we lived as a family of five in a tiny early 20th New York immigrant's appartment, even though we'd be much better off than a feudal peasant living in a straw hut with no electricity and a distant water well (the "working class" of its day), which in turn would be must better off than some early aggrarian iron age person (even an upper class one). So, in some sense, poverty must be estimated with regard to access to the standards and niceties of the era (and is therefore connected to inequality).

In another sense, poverty is also qualitative and cultural, and working as a factory cog in a sweatshop for $3 dollars might be worse than living as part of your traditional tribe (and their lifestyle) for $0 dollars. And yet, we herald people whose native lands have been plundered (or whose local e.g. farm income has been destroyed by cheaper imports) and are forced against their will and to the detriment of their lifestyle, to seek work in the cities as a triumph over poverty.

What can be measured well, is whether we have greatly reduced hunger and childbirth deaths and such metrics.

But poverty is too flexible and abstract a term to say we have "ended" it. Else we'd have already "ended poverty" when we moved from the caves to early cities and huts too - as everybody had raised their income levels and owned goods and such. And yet, poverty just reappeared in a different relative level.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#49

The end of poverty began in the US around 1800, when the specter of famine was finally eliminated. Throughout the 19th century, Americans grew in height and life expectancy, resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world. Today, America's poor have a better quality of life than medieval kings.

> resulting in America's poor being the richest poor people in the world.

That's a pretty big assertion without evidence especially with America's awful healthcare system and it's smaller safety net than some other countries.

Re: The history of the end of poverty has just begun

#50
post #2

While there's clearly a lot in the whole $1/day thing, it's not as clear cut. If you live in Sweden on $30 a day and pay $900 a month in rent, that leaves you with just 31 cents a day. Meanwhile if you live in India on $5 a day and pay $50 a month in rent you'd have $3.35 a day left over, and $3 in rural india goes a lot further than $3 in Sweden. Those are of course extreme examples, and the levels of poverty in pla…

I wonder if there were some sort of metric that could account for parity in the power in purchasing between two locations?

And I wonder if that metric that accounted for parity in the power in purchasing (let's call it PPP for convenience), if it existed, would be much more than a crude bureaucratic misrepresenation of the situation on the field and bad government statistics taken at face value...
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