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Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

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271–280 of 474 posts

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#271
My partner and I are planning to move to Amsterdam in the middle of this year. We haven't done it yet so maybe this isn't super relevant, but here are our reasons (we're planning to have kids, so lots of these are kid-related):

- There is essentially no gun violence.

- Education is a lot better and more evenly distributed.

- Access to abortion and other reproductive health care.

- Far less dependent on cars (walkable cities, trains, public transit).

- Better legislative regimes--you can see this in sectors like food safety.

- Better balance between employer and worker rights, which leads to...

- Better work/life balance.

- Lower income inequality.

- More diversity of culture.

- So far, no insanely huge forest fires or mega-droughts.

- Stronger anti-discrimination laws (including protections for LGBTQ people and immigrants).

- College is very inexpensive.

- Retirement infrastructure is much stronger.

- The US government and election system is... it's bad.

Here are things that give us pause:

- Depending on how you look at it, a lack of diversity. The US is super diverse; only a few cities in the EU really come close. It is true that the EU is home to lots and lots of cultural diversity, but when you look at like, raw numbers of Black/Asian/etc. people they're worse.

- The rise of nationalism--we mostly think it's less of an issue in the EU than it is in the US, but TBD on this, especially as climate migration increases.

- The EU's response to climate change has been miserable, and they're pretty dependent on autocratic regimes (Russia) for energy.

- The social integration difficulty is hard to estimate, but we assume it's pretty high. Learning a new language is hard, learning a new culture is hard, adjusting to being an outsider/immigrant is hard, and you're doing all this while adjusting to lots of other things.

- Most of our family lives in the US, they're getting older, and we'll miss out on familial support re: child rearing.

---

These all sound high-falutin' probably and they are. But like, what does this mean in practice?

- Our kids will probably never experience low-grade background anxiety of "maybe this is the day a school shooting happens".

- We won't have to play the public/private school game, and our kids won't feel that weird class stratification (I know there are still private and parochial schools, but the difference in the US tends to be a super poor school that people of color can't buy out of, and a super rich school that costs a bunch of money).

- Our kids won't ever have the internal debate about reproductive rights: birth control will be a norm and abortions will be available.

- We'll stay healthy more easily with healthier food and a more active, less car-dependent lifestyle.

- Our lives won't revolve around our jobs, we'll be able to be more present for our kids.

- We won't have to solve all of our problems (education, health care, housing) with huge piles of money, driving us to work harder and take jobs that exploit others just so we can stay ahead.

- Our kids will probably not have to spend a ton of money or time taking care of us when we're old.

- Our kids will grow up in a more multicultural environment, hopefully giving them a broader view of humanity.

This is pretty hand-wavy and high-level, and there's definitely more nuance than I'm describing here. But achieving most of them in the US requires lots of effort, and it's pretty fragile. Like you can try to lead a car-free existence in a smaller city, but as soon as the 1 grocery store by you closes, or you get a different job, or the city changes the bus routes/schedules, your whole life (probably) changes.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#272
Can anyone moving from the US to Europe speak to the non-white experience? I’m interested in the UK specifically. We understand that the UK has some pretty harsh anti-hate crime and anti-hate speech laws on the books, but what is life like as a professional American person of color making a change from the US to the UK?

Is anyplace outside London considered inclusive?

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#273
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in the US my whole life, I've been to LA once for a wedding, and I really don't see a single similarity between what's going on in LA and what's going on where I live (Northwest Arkansas). My air is clean, my commutes are traffic free, the people here generally suck, and I have access to world class... everything, if I want it (well, maybe not transportation, but my car is nice, German even!, and I can get…

This quote nails on the head what is wrong with the USA "Because I'm wealthy". Being wealthy at the cost of providing a good society for everyone is what is wrong with America. We could have a society where people have a safety net and work/life balance, and also have wealthy people. I grew up in Fayetteville AR watching my family struggle at multiple times... especially over health care emergencies. Ultimately this…

I'd be happy to give more if I knew it wasn't going to people like who live in Harrison (for example).

They deserve to rot in poverty for their regressive, racist views, and the hate the spews from that town and out into the rest of America.

They do so much more damage than I ever could by making a good living.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#274
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s very hard to live where you can walk to a grocery store. Very hard seems like an exaggeration. More expensive, maybe, but millions of low-income people also do it. I didn't have a car for most of my twenties, and the majority of my social group didn't either. Living in a more spread out area of the US is a choice-- one that comes with benefits, but still a choice.

I do love living in New Orleans, either this or Brooklyn are the only real cities for me here. I need to be able to walk to a grocery store. I'm privileged to have lived here for 6 years, and the only reason I recently got an old truck, was to evacuate in case of a hurricane, and we didn't even evacuate during ida. The sidewalks are torn to shit, the streets are full of holes. I'm quite certain that the streets are n…

New Orleans is a wonderful city. Berlin does seem like a great option to live for a couple years-- the biggest problem being that it's arguably too appealing to expats. I'd also recommend Valparaíso, Chile as a good Berlin alternative if you want to try Latin American life for a while.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#275
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm taking about a 50% pay cut on paper (for a Senior Software Engineer position) A friend of mine moved from Seattle to Munich for work as an SSE, and his experience with respect to the pay cut matches yours. He was expecting that, but did not factor in the increase in taxes on top of that. He said he was broke and living off savings for the first time in his adult life, while working 40 hours a week for a major s…

How can you be broke as a senior software engineer? Even if the wages are lower than in the US, they're probably still in the better half of the wage pyramid. (I'm a senior software engineer in Europe, doing alright) Did he have massive student debt or something?

> How can you be broke as a senior software engineer?

Housing and taxes are both expensive.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a US citizen with a skilled workers visa. With a skilled workers visa you are eligible to apply for permanent residency after 3 years, and for citizenship after 7 years. Norway does allow duel-citizenship. If we stay, and continue to learn Norwegian, we could (in theory) have duel citizenship in 4 more years. I moved to Norway to work for a specific Norwegian employer and already had them lined up before moving t…

Thank you!

Good questions, thanks for asking.

For context, I am considering moving back to the US.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#277
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s very hard to live where you can walk to a grocery store. Very hard seems like an exaggeration. More expensive, maybe, but millions of low-income people also do it. I didn't have a car for most of my twenties, and the majority of my social group didn't either. Living in a more spread out area of the US is a choice-- one that comes with benefits, but still a choice.

I do love living in New Orleans, either this or Brooklyn are the only real cities for me here. I need to be able to walk to a grocery store. I'm privileged to have lived here for 6 years, and the only reason I recently got an old truck, was to evacuate in case of a hurricane, and we didn't even evacuate during ida. The sidewalks are torn to shit, the streets are full of holes. I'm quite certain that the streets are n…

I lived in Kreuzburg when it began gentrifying. I lived near the Kotti. I liked the area and have a love/hate relationship with Berlin. May Day in Kreuzburg was interesting. I got an appointment to see a dermatologist in Berlin in one day. I had no German health insurance or travel insurance. The whole thing, including medication, cost me around 30 euros. Their health system is much more sane than ours. In summer go to the lakes in the eastern part of the city. You’ll see whole families stripping in front of everyone and going for a swim. Definitely a different experience. Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#278
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geez someone hit a nerve, eh? I'm a Canadian and I've travelled most of Europe, and most of the US (among other parts of the world). The simple fact that the US doesn't have universal healthcare, and refuses to do anything real about it, or other endemic self-inflicted issues like gun violence - problems the rest of the modern world solved long ago! - kinda puts you at the bottom of the list of modern/developed count…

> The simple fact that the US doesn't have universal healthcare, and refuses to do anything real about it, What is funny, is how many Canadians come to the US for faster or better treatment. No more 3 month wait list to get a basic procedure. It's almost like there are pros and cons to every system, eh?

They must be exceptionally wealthy to afford said treatment with no insurance coverage. If you're wealthy, it doesn't matter what the system is because you can just go to a different country to get treatment, that's the same for people in the US.

I have a roommate who hasn't had health care most of his adult life because the cost is so high and the fact that most low-end jobs don't offer any. But fuck him I guess.

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#279
post #229
post #60

Moved from Seattle to Munich, Germany a few years ago. Biggest sacrifices: Pay is kind of a huge one. There are very few companies (even global ones) that pay the same in Europe as they do in the US. If I moved back to the US with my current company, I would get a ~70k/year increase in salary. Social situation is the other big one. It's hard to ever feel like you totally fit in as an expat. Biggest gains: Quality of…

When you consider all the add ons like healthcare, living costs, exchange rate, etc, the salary differences are no longer that off. In a calculation i did once with some co worker it ended up with a. $10k difference. And considering that the US culture is consume driven, that money is gone in seconds for crap.

This varies too much by individual. For me, the difference would almost entirely built upon where you live. Things like healthcare are already included in my job.

This is assuming I get paid the same but somethings just differ a little. If I was paid market rates in Europe - I’d be probably get $200K+ less than I do now and that’s not insignificant…

Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does LA and Vienna compare to Australia?

Australia is a different dimension altogether - you have a lot of the trappings of Western (US/European) culture, but none of the advantages of access to a free market. Personally, I can't stand Australian culture, nor American either these days - which isn't to say I'm launching into an adopted German/Austrian stance, just that .. being away from these lands for a decade at least in each case, I started to see the s…

I'm also Australian+American+European and I have to agree with this and your original post.

People replying to you (Americans?) seem to take great offense to your (harsh) criticism of America but it's largely on the mark. The US has many good things going for it but they mostly have to do with having a lot of money/power, trying to get a lot of money/power or being ideologically way off to the right.

I don't know what you dislike about Australian culture but for me it's the parochial nature of the place along with the smugness combined with the cultural cringe. It does indeed have a great quality of life as long as you enjoy beer, sports and the beach. You'll find the most interesting Australians are elsewhere in the world. To give it due credit it is a country with massive immigration (30% of residents were born overseas) where people by and large get on very well with each other.

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