Earlier quoted context omitted.
What do you mean by integrate? As in, it's harder to find friends? Or that there's cultural issues barring you from being as close friends as you would someone from the U.S.?
Not the GP, but I think you might find in Switzerland (I lived there) that it's not so easy to make friends. When I'm in America, people will just straight up come up to me and talk, so the culture seems to be a bit more open. In Switzerland, socializing is quite different. For a start, there's a local language that isn't the one they teach you in language classes. It also appears much of the socializing happens arou…
Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?
221–230 of 474 posts
Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vienna is one of the nicest and wealthiest cities in Europe. LA is a car-centric sprawling cesspool. Even for the US, it’s uniquely terrible. If you’d moved to some of the less desirable locations in Europe, you’d probably find them to be a shithole, too. Your lack of perspective (“how much of a shithole the USA really is”) is something I’d only expect from someone half your age on their first backpacking tour of Eur…
This is getting heated so let's all take about 20% off there, buds, eh? That being said I've lived all over the US and traveled all over the world, and yes, LA is particularly bad, but in general I agree with OP.
Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?
#223Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?
#224Won't discuss publicly, but I'd say : worth doing, but leave your stuff in storage for two years -- the appliances won't work here anyhow. Seek out communities (meetup, etc), and if you're doing it for a startup, you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Pm for story time, but basically, it's an adventure, and one that will be of (mostly) your own making
I wonder if anyone in the US has converted their house to European appliances. The voltage is close enough, converting an entire house over to using 240V on all circuits is a trivial change, the hard part would be swapping all the plugs for European ones. And the frequency is probably the biggest part, but I'm unsure how big a difference 50Hz vs 60Hz makes with modern appliances.
I just find the thought kind of amusing. In a country this size I'm betting at least one person has done it. People are nuts.
Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?
#225Not from the US but from another country in the Americas. Here is a non-exhaustive list of things to take into consideration: - Social life. Yes, modern technology makes it easier than ever to keep touch with friends from across the globe, but you need to expect to lose some relationships there. Not all friendships can survive the distance. The time zone difference also makes it annoying to keep in touch (e.g. you wi…
Question about healthcare. You mentioned getting private healthcare. What is the purpose of that if public healthcare is available for free? Do you get to cut in line for appointments?
Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
In case you didn't notice, I don't care a fig about Australia these days, but your trigger-finger reactionary response calling out China as a reason why America is 'wonderful' is definitely something I expect from Americans . And, frankly, its boring and tiresome. As is the expectation that anyone with a world view not derived from the idiot box would be impressed by America's war budget. You should be ashamed of wha…
This is purely inflammatory rhetoric. Ironically coming from someone who immigrated, was afforded the opportunity to make enough to pay $2M in taxes in 15 years (and even goes on to brag about this payment funding blowing up brown kids), and found the "American Dream" by his own statement.
You're free to hate America. We're free to be happy you left. But really you're gone, just go on enjoying your life. America isn't perfect and has a lot of problems but I'm much happier here than I would be in Europe, it's definitely not a "shithole" to me, my family, or most of the people I know.
Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think getting upset comes from the fact that in addition to some very valid criticism, there is a tremendous amount of invalid criticism thrown towards the US. If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage then they would likely grow sensitive to criticism as well, even when it is occasionally valid. Another reason could be the mindless, abject hatred you seem to have of…
> If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage This would be a fair argument if you, as an American, weren't ignoring the fact that the USA is the worlds #1 cause of terror, war and torment - in countless other sovereign nations, whose infrastructure was torn apart so that Americans could feel good about themselves and their country. Austrians, and Germans aren't dropping…
Pax Americana has been the most productive time in modern history. Europe's track record is objectively worse
Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
> LA is a car-centric sprawling cesspool. Even for the US, it’s uniquely terrible. LA isn’t even the worst in that regard (I’d take LA over DFW) I don’t know where you are from, but LA is actually representative of large swaths of the US, and highlights some of the best things about America (namely multiculturalism and diversity)
> I don’t know where you are from, but LA is actually representative of large swaths of the US I actually grew up in LA, and now live in the foothills outside of Boulder on a large forest property — which is nothing like LA or Vienna. I haven’t run into many areas of the US reminiscent of LA, and the US is enormous . It can’t be painted with a single (and such a reductive) brush.
Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?
#229Moved from Seattle to Munich, Germany a few years ago. Biggest sacrifices: Pay is kind of a huge one. There are very few companies (even global ones) that pay the same in Europe as they do in the US. If I moved back to the US with my current company, I would get a ~70k/year increase in salary. Social situation is the other big one. It's hard to ever feel like you totally fit in as an expat. Biggest gains: Quality of…
Re: Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?
#230I don't have a tech background. In 2009, I was a BA holder (Philosophy) working 3 jobs (retail/hospitality/merchandising) with no real prospects. I had always had the bug to get out of the country, but had no specific plan. I took a year to go back to school to study foreign languages (French, Italian, Portuguese) with the plan to find some way to transition to another country.
One of my French professors pointed me to TAPIF (Teaching Assistant Program in France), that gives you a 6 month contract to teach English in French public schools. So, in 2010, I was placed in Lille, France where I "taught" English in primary school. In reality, I got around 900 euros a month (with full benefits) to work around 10 hours a week. I did this for two years, and was able to afford a modest room and a few trips to Barcelona, Amsterdam, London, etc. I also met the woman I would eventually marry.
The TAPIF program disincentivizes a transition to permanent residency, so I instead decided to do a Masters in France. This is highly preferable to doing a study abroad program, since you pay French tuition (less than a thousand euros for the ENTIRE degree...that includes tuition, books, materials, etc.), you can work 20 hours a week, and you get healthcare, housing subsidies, food subsidies, etc. So, while going to school full time and working part time, I could afford a really full life in a an apartment in the city, taking plenty of vacations, and generally not worrying about life.
Until my future wife and I realize we were never going to become French. Don't get me wrong, a lot of expats, both American and European, become French. We just couldn't. Even with above average fluency for non-native speakers, you will be constantly singled out as non-native. You may make local friends, but in France, it is a life's work to become a local yourself.
So, in 2014, we moved to Romania (wife's home town). I managed to get a job with a web marketing company, which provided a decent salary for life in Romania (~$800/month). We had enough to live comfortably in rent for a while, and enough to build a house. We had family and friends, and the ability to take trips both in the country and around Europe. However, even though I learned Romanian (a rare feat for ANY non-native speaker), people still treated me as a novelty. To this day, I will engage in conversation with native speakers in Romanian, and they will invariably respond to my wife, about me, in the third person, while I am standing there. Somehow, being an outsider never really wears off.
It wasn't all bad though, since I did manage to get into tech without having any background. This alone is an achievement, since one of the biggest differences in Europe vs the US is the importance of the subject on your diploma. European education sets you up for a career around middle school. You want to work as a SWE? You'd better take the rights middle school classes to get in to the right technical high school, so you can pass the entrance exams to the PolyTechnic college and earn the degree you'll need to even GET an interview with a European tech company. Not that it's impossible to cross over, but it is far far less common.
The biggest thing I gained was a sense of value in myself and my skills. Having worked for peanuts in tech in Romania, while counterparts in America were pulling down close to or over 6 figures for the same work, I began to lose patience with the whole system. I got extremely lucky to get a remote job with an American company in 2018. My wife decided she would like to transition to an American company as well, and in 2019 we moved to the US.
We are in San Diego now, and our life is miles ahead of where we were before. Yes, the cost of living is higher. Yes, healthcare is tied to our jobs. Yes, you need a car because public transportation is insufficient. Yes, America has a gun violence problem.
But we live 10 minutes from the beach (nice beaches too; not sure what's wrong with the water in LA...San Diego provides a far superior life to LA anyways), we have quality friends from a variety of backgrounds who treat us as equals, the population is diverse in age, ethnicity, education, etc. We will manage the cost of being here, because the benefits are superior to anything we've had in the past.
If you are considering a move to Europe from the US, you should consider these things:
- Language: you need to be ready to learn it; don't rely on other people speaking English
- Friends / peer groups: you need to be ready to abandon your current ones, and start from scratch with new ones
- Family: close family relationships in the US will be difficult to maintain; at best there will be a 5-hour time difference that will hinder communication
- Living space: unless you are taking your big American salary, you can expect to give up your big American personal space
- Cars: in a metropolis (Paris, London, Rome, etc.)? don't even try; in a suburb? think about getting a license (much harder in Europe) and a car (much more expensive than in the US)
- Food: don't be a picky eater
- Measurements: all things will be different...can you measure it? clothes, shoes, food stuffs, liquids, speeds, distances, etc. will be different and no one will care that your American sizes don't match up
- Intangibles: depending on where you choose to live, cultural differences will mean others will seem cold or mean or loud or timid, and you will appear obnoxious or rude or stupid or uncultured...and you have to be ok with that. You will always be wrong, because it's their culture, not yours.
Do I recommend it? Yes.