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I'd be curious to hear some first hand experiences of those who've made the move to Europe and what you think of the process and considerations one should make.
A few questions to start the conversation:
- Where do you live?
- What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e. pay, housing, friends, etc.)
- What have you gained?
WHERE: I'm Australian, moved to LA when I was 18 and lived there for 15 years. Then, I moved from Los Angeles to Germany (Duesseldorf), and then to Vienna, Austria.
WHAT SACRIFICE: No more In 'n Out Burger, no more decent Mexican/TexMex food, no more LA food trucks. These are literally the only things I miss about the USA. Literally every other aspect of life has improved massively by leaving the USA - healthcare, food, social life. For the first 4 years I walked to work, ffs. Now I ride a bicycle in combination with the best public transportation options in the world (Austria, Vienna).
GAINED: I've completely lost the brain-dead nationalist mentality that had infected me in my earlier life, I've gained Immense amounts of respect for humanity, I've learned German, I've experienced professional software and hardware development away from Silicon Valley standard practices, and I get to see the USA from outside the decadent, rose-colored bubble from which it is usually experienced. I honestly wish I'd left sooner - every time I go back I'm reminded just how much of a shithole the USA really is ..
Plus, living and loving in Europe is just great. There is no greater joy than a trip through the Balkans for a week adventure, or maybe a jaunt to Spain or southern France. Just being able to travel an hour in any direction and being immersed in absolutely foreign culture is a joy like no other. Definitely a great way to ground oneself.
EDIT: The weather was pretty good in LA. But, still: Americans.
- Where do you live? SF -> Amsterdam
- What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e. pay, housing, friends, etc.) I was shocked when my HR department told me our salaries would pretty much be cut in half. I was also furious because I was going to be working remotely for the same team, doing the same work and would bring the same value. We still did it, and honestly, I felt richer over there. Housing is much cheaper both renting and buying. Groceries felt like no matter what we'd buy, it'd be 20E. Even after 3 years we'd be surprised at how cheap it is. Activities, restaurants, etc are all much cheaper too.
We left a bunch of friend behind obviously but made friends there. Like most expats, mostly other expats through work and not a lot of locals.
Weather sucks.
No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day. Also, probably because of the amount of countries there are, buying things online seems to be shipped more often from other countries and the delivery times are usually longer.
- What have you gained? As mentioned, despite /2 our salary, we felt much richer, much more comfortable. When we quit our jobs we felt comfortable not making a lot of money because even our mortgage there was cheap. Working for a US tech company still put us way above the average income. Also, like in most of EU, great healthcare and other benefits.
Amsterdam in particular is great for biking/walking, it's truly a very nice city except for the terrible weather. We still talk about how we miss our lives there, but would never move back because of the weather, especially compared to the bay area.
I think the TLDR of our experience was that EU was just more chill, more comfortable, a bit broader in terms of culture, less grind less work. I was so happy about where i'm at in Amsterdam, and as soon as we got back to the US, something, I'm not sure what, made me get back on that hedonic treadmill and grind again for more more more and more.
I'd recommend it :)
I did the opposite and found the us much better. Pay and opportunities are infinitely better, people are friendlier, having a car is much easier and more convenient.
...if you're lucky enough to be among the privileged.
Mainly the US has many benefits:
- Much, much higher salaries - like 2-3x higher than Western Europe _before_ income tax!
- Much larger houses for the price. i.e. you can have a big house with room for hobbies or children rather than just a small flat.
- Lower prices on a lot of fixed-price goods - cars, electronics, fuel, electricity, natural gas, etc.
- Lower income and sales tax so you can save for a property and retirement. This is really tough in Europe, the sort of Tech FIRE culture doesn't exist due to that - wealth is primarily inherited.
The downsides are:
- It's a necessity to drive, but at least outside the big cities it's a lot easier than Europe overall (big, wide, straight roads and automatic cars).
- Healthcare is tied to your employer so it can be incredibly risky when moving as an immigrant since until you get a Green Card, you are tied to the one employer (good luck negotiating a raise!). Note that in most Tech companies, the health insurance gives you better coverage than public systems in Europe (e.g. covering dentistry and annual checkups).
- Less stability in employment - at-will employment, lower unemployment payments (except vs. the UK), no trade unions in Tech.
- Safety in some areas wrt. gun crime, etc. - you have to choose where you live and work very carefully.
- Backwards in some technology (online payments, card payments, digitisation of government services vs. the UK and Scandinavia for example).
A main decision point would be if you have kids. Europe is great to move to if you've already saved a lot in the US, can move to Europe and buy a house outright, get permanent residency and then have children and benefit from better paternal leave and even universal child benefit payments (Kindergeld/Barnbidrag, etc.)
Whereas if you are child-free, and don't already have enough savings to buy property, it's going to be harder to achieve that in Europe IMO.
Hey! I'm back in the US but my wife and I moved from SF to Amsterdam for 3 years. We moved with our tech job there and ended up eventually quitting and doing our own company. - Where do you live? SF -> Amsterdam - What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e. pay, housing, friends, etc.) I was shocked when my HR department told me our salaries would pretty much be cut in half. I was also furious because I was go…
You won't be buying million-dollar mansions on a European programmers salary, but then maybe you'll find less materialist goals in the European context .. just being able to take a train-ride anywhere is a vast improvement.
I did the opposite and found the us much better. Pay and opportunities are infinitely better, people are friendlier, having a car is much easier and more convenient.
> Pay and opportunities are infinitely better ...if you're lucky enough to be among the privileged.