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An Experience with Modafinil

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Re: An Experience with Modafinil

#161

Post by Engineering-MD »

inter_netuser wrote: post #59
ipnon wrote: post #49

What's remarkable to me is that modafinil is less toxic than caffeine[0], and possibly even less addictive[1], but we all know which is illegal for recreational use and which is coffee. Regulations are sticky. The FDA follows the precautionary principle. Political game theory incentivizes restricting what the electorate can do rather than giving them more freedoms, and being blamed for whatever harm may fall upon the…

Caffeine would be illegal to possess, if it were invented yesterday. 80% of people couldn't distinguish I.V. cocaine from I.V. caffeine in some study I am unable to locate at the moment, which I think involved Nora Volkow from NIH, either as PI or collaborator.

I suspect the relative dose of each would be a very important decision in such a study.

Re: An Experience with Modafinil

#162

Post by Engineering-MD »

dpark wrote: post #110
inter_netuser wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caffeine would be illegal to possess, if it were invented yesterday. 80% of people couldn't distinguish I.V. cocaine from I.V. caffeine in some study I am unable to locate at the moment, which I think involved Nora Volkow from NIH, either as PI or collaborator.

You remember the topic and the name of the PI but still can’t find this study? I am relatively certain that’s because it does not exist. The idea that caffeine is comparable to cocaine is pretty nuts. People murder to get cocaine. When’s the last time anyone murdered for Starbucks? I can totally believe that if you give someone who’s never done drugs a high dose of caffeine and tell them it’s cocaine, they might beli…

I suspect the dosing might explain the equivalence. I’ve not come across the study, but if the conclusion was “a 1/100th of the normal dose of cocaine is equivalent to 3 cups of coffee equivalent” I could believe that.

Re: An Experience with Modafinil

#163

Post by inter_netuser »

Engineering-MD wrote: post #162
dpark wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You remember the topic and the name of the PI but still can’t find this study? I am relatively certain that’s because it does not exist. The idea that caffeine is comparable to cocaine is pretty nuts. People murder to get cocaine. When’s the last time anyone murdered for Starbucks? I can totally believe that if you give someone who’s never done drugs a high dose of caffeine and tell them it’s cocaine, they might beli…

I suspect the dosing might explain the equivalence. I’ve not come across the study, but if the conclusion was “a 1/100th of the normal dose of cocaine is equivalent to 3 cups of coffee equivalent” I could believe that.

dosing usually would be dialed-in to provide roughly identical autonomic effects (at least) and then graded increased doses. otherwise it would be a pointless study.

here is a very old one, but oral not i.v.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4900434/

5mg/10mg amphetamine sulphate vs 300mg and 600mg of caffeine (all oral). The study scales ended up being skewed because one subject had paradoxical response and felt relaxed instead on amphetamines, lol.

If you have access to the full text, check out page 89: fig5 and fig6.

Volkow's lecture may have referenced multiple studies, I've heard that in the context of her lecture on various findings on psychostimulants. amphetamines and cocaine have been fairly repeatedly shown fairly consistent substitutes, so it may have been a study on amp vs caffeine.

She just loves to study and talk about cocaine for some reason, has literally a hundred+ papers on it.

Re: An Experience with Modafinil

#164

Post by phillipsdesign »

I used to use this when freelancing and a big deadline was approaching, I found it very helpful. It felt like I could get at least twice as much done in a day.

However I stopped using it after getting into a minor motorbike accident. Another motorbike was driving on the shoulder (pretty typical in Thailand) and I didn't spot her while turning at an intersection, even after checking both directions. The tunnel vision side-effect is no joke!

Re: An Experience with Modafinil

#165

Post by inter_netuser »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #121
dpark wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You remember the topic and the name of the PI but still can’t find this study? I am relatively certain that’s because it does not exist. The idea that caffeine is comparable to cocaine is pretty nuts. People murder to get cocaine. When’s the last time anyone murdered for Starbucks? I can totally believe that if you give someone who’s never done drugs a high dose of caffeine and tell them it’s cocaine, they might beli…

OK, I don't have any data either but I'd be pretty surprised if there were a lot of murders by people trying to acquire cocaine. I mean, it could be true? If you were seriously addicted but not high at the time, I expect you might feel agitated, but also kind of sorry for yourself / miserable and not so much in a murdering frame of mind. Large amounts of money (which large amounts of cocaine can be exchanged for), on…

There certainly would be very few, and likely none, murders to obtain cocaine by end users. It does not cause dependency in a way heroin and gabaergics do.

Heroin withdrawals are quite painful (literally), and many users are also simply suffering from endogenous depression that responds to almost nothing, and in fact used to be treated by morphine.

Same goes for alcohol and benzo withdrawals that WILL give you seizures and quite possibly death.

Psychostimulants (cocaine, amphetamines, cathionines, other assorted alkaloids, including caffeine) withdrawals means being very tired, lethargic and sleeping a lot, they are not life threatening.

Re: An Experience with Modafinil

#166

Post by yc-kraln »

ianbutler wrote: post #67

A friend of mine has used this before and they did alternating low ~30mg doses that same someone had previously used a similar dose Adderall in highschool and early college and preferred the feeling of Modafinil. They told me they had read multiple studies before hand as well as personal accounts (such as from the venerable https://www.gwern.net/ ). That person told me that the feeling was less intense but enough to…

I used to describe Modafinil as "the best sleep you ever had, in pill form". As someone with chronic sleep issues and ADHD, it allowed me to function during some of the worst months of my life.

The way I eventually settled on to 'dose' Modafinil is two pills (200mg) on Monday morning, then one pill on Wednesday morning; this kept my serum levels at a level where I got the positive effects for a whole work week, yet could still relax on the weekend.

I haven't been in a situation where I felt I needed this for a while, now.

Re: An Experience with Modafinil

#167

Post by inter_netuser »

dpark wrote: post #129
inter_netuser wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it was Volkow, or even if she was a PI. She does a lot of research at the NIH on drugs of abuse, but I'm not sure it's her paper. I am quite certain the study exists, because I recall her talking about the findings, and then reading the abstract.

I have high confidence that you will never find this study, and that it doesn’t exist. I’m not accusing you of malice, but I think you must be misremembering something. But I’d love to be wrong. That would be a very interesting result.

It was in a context of a lecture, it could be that she referenced multiple papers.

but, like it or not, caffeine is a psychostimulant, and psychostimulant substitution is fairly well established, idk whats the controversy.

if you want to find it, you might have to crawl thru every reference of volkow's 100+ papers on cocaine.

Re: An Experience with Modafinil

#168

Post by tomcam »

throwawayHN378 wrote: post #80
inter_netuser wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caffeine would be illegal to possess, if it were invented yesterday. 80% of people couldn't distinguish I.V. cocaine from I.V. caffeine in some study I am unable to locate at the moment, which I think involved Nora Volkow from NIH, either as PI or collaborator.

As someone who has done a lot of IV cocaine and coffee I find this hard to believe. IV cocaine is one of the most euphoric highs in the world

Serious question. How do you deal with life when you aren’t high on IV coke? That state sounds so good I’d absolutely get addicted first thing.

Re: An Experience with Modafinil

#169

Post by netizen-936824 »

dpark wrote: post #129
inter_netuser wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it was Volkow, or even if she was a PI. She does a lot of research at the NIH on drugs of abuse, but I'm not sure it's her paper. I am quite certain the study exists, because I recall her talking about the findings, and then reading the abstract.

I have high confidence that you will never find this study, and that it doesn’t exist. I’m not accusing you of malice, but I think you must be misremembering something. But I’d love to be wrong. That would be a very interesting result.

I wasn't able to find a specific research study yet but here's this

>Intravenous caffeine also resembles cocaine, she points out.

https://archive.fo/bLX94

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