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Meditation and the Unconscious

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Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#31

Post by i_like_apis »

n4r9 wrote: post #22
i_like_apis wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always found it interesting that many meditation techniques involve "emptying the mind" or "clearing the mind" of thought. While practicing concentration on a single point of focus definitely seems useful for strengthening the mind, I'm not sure that practicing a state of being completely devoid of thought is necessarily healthy. I would rather meditate on being full of thought, and thinking of many things simul…

I think a Buddhist might argue that one's mind is a high distraction environment.

Yes, I've had much practice in focus meditation and can attest to this. Sitting in one spot and earnestly focusing on an object of meditation for 15-30 minutes is harder than it sounds.

As powerful as that is (and backed by science), still I wonder about an alternative meditation that focuses on fullness or activity of thought.

But I subscribe to a materialist metaphysics that assumes the mind cannot truly be escaped and the benefit of meditation is to strengthen the mind and body.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#33

Post by zozbot234 »

lewispollard wrote: post #24
zozbot234 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vipassana is insight meditation, which is generally contrasted with mindfulness (known as 'samatha'). "Mindfulness" is generally thought of as a prerequisite to insight, though an especially committed vipassana practitioner might well develop both concurrently. (The aforementioned 'insight' is of course meant as insight into the three core features of phenomenology, viz. the impermanence of subjective states, the all…

Mindfulness meditation is a term we use to describe the practices that certain famous/influential western meditation practitioners developed after coming back from the mostly theravada countries that they went to to learn meditation practices from the monks there in the 50-70s. Generally speaking, those practices were vipassana/insight practices, and so mindfulness practices are in essence, or at least are modified v…

> And yeah, the development of sati, along with other helpful factors, can help to gain insight, which is basically the way the mind looks at itself and conceptualises its own experience, in a kind of self-reflective way

Actually the insight of vipassana is pretty consistent in being other-reflective and not "self"-reflective. It's concentrating on mental states as they happen, and realizing that a mental state can never be truly "about" itself, but at most it can relate to the fleeting memory of a former mental state. Since there is thus no such thing as actual "self"-reflection, the next insight is that mental perceptions, at their most basic level, do not in fact evidence any continuity and distinct identity of the "self" - which is of course the core "insight" of anatta!

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#34

Post by rowanajmarshall »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #28
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #20

“One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The latter procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular.” -C.G. Jung

Context? I have no idea what this quote is trying to say.

"imagining figures of light" implies trying to believe in a goodness that doesn't really exist, while "making the darkness conscious" implies making an uncomfortable effort to become aware of the darker aspects of reality, to know it better.

At least in my opinion.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#35

Post by andai »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #28
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #20

“One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The latter procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular.” -C.G. Jung

Context? I have no idea what this quote is trying to say.

Here's my understanding of "shadow work", which I believe was invented by Jung. Unpleasant thoughts and emotions are made conscious. In this way, the energy behind them is released and they no longer influence you subconsciously. This ties in nicely with the Buddhist Vipassana mindfulness meditation technique, although they are separate processes.

In practical terms, I notice that something is bothering me, or that there is some unhelpful pattern in the way I live my life, and I sit down and pay attention to how I feel. I do this on the level of individual physical sensations. When thoughts arise, I let them go. When painful feelings arise, I notice the automatic urge to flinch away from them, and I simply allow them to be there, and I experience them fully.

In this way, their function (as "messengers") is fulfilled, and they disappear. As a result, I feel relief and "lightness", a feeling of being relieved of burdens.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#36

Post by damontal »

i_like_apis wrote: post #19
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

Makes me think of how Marvin Minsky thought Meditation was a bad thing.

I've always found it interesting that many meditation techniques involve "emptying the mind" or "clearing the mind" of thought. While practicing concentration on a single point of focus definitely seems useful for strengthening the mind, I'm not sure that practicing a state of being completely devoid of thought is necessarily healthy. I would rather meditate on being full of thought, and thinking of many things simul…

Sam Harris kinda does this in his guided meditations. At times he asks you to sit in a noisy public place. His aim seems to be to to try to get you to quickly turn your attention on the thing that is currently doing the noticing. The point being a realization that there’s nothing there when you try to turn your attention to it. And that’s supposed to produce some kind of realization. Never worked for me in practice.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#37

Post by claylimo »

emptysongglass wrote: post #7
PaulHoule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minsky thought meditation was dangerous in and of itself. (e.g. you aren't meant to inspect your own functioning) Personally I did a mindfulness practice for a while that I thought was harmful because it encouraged me to accept unacceptable situations which was already leading me to bad outcomes.

Meditation is a tool that cuts both ways. It must be used, like any tool, with respect and careful practice. The Buddha analogized it to a poisonous viper in the wrong hands. I'll give you one example from my own practice. When I learned the Mahasi style of vipassana (mindfulness) meditation, which has you note sense objects as they arise, I noted everything , including conversation. I noted "hearing, hearing, hearin…

Mahasi noting is the most meticulous practice I've ever done. It's easy to do wrong and should be done with a trained teacher. There are Mahasi centers that offer month long retreats which are worth exploring (at least when the pandemic is done).

The first time I did a noting type practice (way before doing the Mahasi style of noting) I became nearly instantly depressed and disassociated. Noting is, for me, a very agitating practice. If someone is reading this, this doesn't mean Mahasi is a 'bad' technique. But you may want to steady yourself in a shamatha practice before considering noting.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#38

Post by undershirt »

bobiny wrote: post #30
throw1234651234 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Context? I have no idea what this quote is trying to say.

I think, it implies that following an ideal (light) is futile, only seeing what is (darkness) works. The most popular religion in the world is based on fall from grace, original sin that we must attone for to become pure again. Alternative is that there is no going back and no perfect world or state of mind ahead, only the reality, which is sometimes dirty and messy and for many of us hard to see clearly.

I don’t think so. Jordan Peterson is heavily influenced by Jung, and he said something that might be closer to Jung’s point:

> In some sense, I believed in the devil before I believed in God.

To unpack that a bit, he said suffering is the most real thing there is, and was obsessed with understanding how the unprecedented evil of the 20th century happened. That led him to reason that if evil like that can exist, its opposite might also exist, and has been finding his way to God ever since.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#39

Post by azhu »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #28
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #20

“One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The latter procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular.” -C.G. Jung

Context? I have no idea what this quote is trying to say.

To become conscious of all things a person must look for that which they are unconscious of rather than focusing purely on that which they are already conscious of. Most people prefer to see themselves as competent, but to be a master one must always see oneself as a beginner.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#40

Post by monktastic1 »

I am surprised that Matthieu did not address this question head-on:

> This brings me to a critical issue: the side effects of meditation. One could argue that a strategy consisting of closing one’s eyes when facing conflicts, in escaping from problems rather than solving them, is perhaps a suboptimal strategy.

In Dzogchen meditation (which is his main practice), one does not close one's eyes or always sit in a special posture. It is engaged with real life. There is no "escaping" of any sort whatsoever. Thoughts arise as they normally do; it is only the method of dealing with them that differs (both from our usual habits and from other approaches like mindfulness as it is normally understood).

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