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Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

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Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#51

Post by AdamJacobMuller »

cletus wrote: post #40

The example is of course egregious ($600 for a software update for a wire that got wet, basically). I fully support being able to repair your own stuff but I have no idea how you regulate this so companies don't gouge "owners" for aftermarket services. Earlier today there was a thread about e-bike battery prices (tl'dr they're ridiculous expensive). I really wish rechargeable batteries had interchangeable form factor…

> I have no idea how you regulate this

This is my concern too, but, I think way more broadly than you.

I love the idea of right to repair. I agree on a fundamental level, this is your device, you bought it, you own it, you should be able to do with it as you please.

What I don't agree with is creating additional regulatory or legislative burdens on companies. I have a number of concerns with doing so, but, philosophically I don't see it as the government's right to unduly interfere in apple (or samsung, or john deere's) right to sell me a product I want to buy.

More directly, I am worried about right to repair stifling innovation and competition. I could easily see a regulatory body require all phone's have user-replaceable batteries and that is not something which I fundamentally want in a phone. It has tradeoffs which I don't want to make.

That said, I think companies like Apple refusing to sell genuine replacement parts at any price is egregious.

However, I also think the government forcing private companies to disclose things like engineering or repair manuals which contain secret/trade information is equally egregious.

All of this is a long way around to saying that while I love the concept of right to repair, the devil is in the details and I haven't seen anyone really enumerate the details of what they'd actually like to put into law.

Am I wrong and is there anyone with actual proposed legislation?

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#52

Post by kube-system »

cletus wrote: post #40

The example is of course egregious ($600 for a software update for a wire that got wet, basically). I fully support being able to repair your own stuff but I have no idea how you regulate this so companies don't gouge "owners" for aftermarket services. Earlier today there was a thread about e-bike battery prices (tl'dr they're ridiculous expensive). I really wish rechargeable batteries had interchangeable form factor…

> I really wish rechargeable batteries had interchangeable form factors like normal batteries.

They largely do. For example, the famous 18650 which powers all kinds of devices from power banks to laptops to cars.

If what you’re referring to is their common inclusion into proprietary battery packs, there are some technical reasons for that difference, like cell balancing, safety protections, etc. While it could be possible to engineer some (but not all) of these concerns out of the equation, you’d end up with a more expensive larger and heavier product.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#53

Post by shagie »

heavyset_go wrote: post #44
shagie wrote: post #35

For industrial equipment (such as a tractor), who is liable for injuries if the equipment is repaired or modified by a 3rd party and it goes to court later? https://www.biren.com/blog/2020/september/defective-machiner... In particular https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/docs/caci/1200/1245... > The [misuse/ [or] modification] was so highly extraordinary that it was not reasonably foreseeable to [name of defendan…

Any idiot who tinkers with cars can flash custom firmware on their car's ECU without a problem, and cars can very easily maim or kill users and the people around them. I don't buy this argument.

Cars are not industrial equipment though and the insurance liabilities on those are different.

https://www.mcguirewoods.com/news-resources/publications/us-...

It has similar Misuse or Alteration of Product defense... but...

https://ggrmlawfirm.com/blog/personal-injury/car-customizati...

> A hobbyist who does his or her own customization work often assumes the risk that some part of the work wasn’t completed correctly. Making changes to a car in a way that renders the car unsafe could expose the hobbyist to liability for any resulting injuries. Absent insurance that specifically covers it, the hobbyist could be left bearing all of the cost of the ensuing litigation and compensation to injured parties.

It is the hobbyist that has the liability. So if you change your car's ECU its you that are liable when it gets in a wreck, not the car company for having a faulty product.

For industrial equipment, that doesn't exist. If you can make a change to the industrial equipment and the equipment manufacturer doesn't try to stop you, the equipment manufacturer is likely liable for damages.

There's a powerpoint (awkward to read in a web browser - "Product Liability Law in the Farm Equipment Industry" from agrability.org also as part of a recorded webinar at https://youtu.be/NdN577BbnSY ). 11:33 talks about Strict Liability and 19:24 talks about farm equipment being "reasonably safe". The case studies are also interesting - pay attention at 42:23 where it points out who is paying for the injury.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#54

Post by LgWoodenBadger »

jacquesm wrote: post #25
nimbius wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

disclosure: im a diesel mechanic by trade and Mahindra's are a real treat!! I absolutely endorse Mahindra but if youre outside TN theyre kinda hard to come by. the tractors are less reliable than more modern western designs but faster and easier to repair by far. new head seals rocker arms valve guide seals and an oil change was 6 hours of labor and i actually started to enjoy it. bolts are over-built for what you ne…

I had a Kubota and loved it. Easy to work on, parts readily available, affordable and no more electronics than it really needed to have. How do Kubota and Mahindra compare side-by-side?

Aftermarket support. JD and Kubota are almost guaranteed to have attachments, enhancements, etc made specifically for them.

My Massey Ferguson has some offerings, but not nearly as many as those two. It’s similar for the other also-rans: New Holland, Kioti, Mahindra, RK, Bronson, and so on.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#56

Post by Rygian »

shagie wrote: post #35

For industrial equipment (such as a tractor), who is liable for injuries if the equipment is repaired or modified by a 3rd party and it goes to court later? https://www.biren.com/blog/2020/september/defective-machiner... In particular https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/docs/caci/1200/1245... > The [misuse/ [or] modification] was so highly extraordinary that it was not reasonably foreseeable to [name of defendan…

No, we're not expecting farmers to be software engineers. But we expect they can hire actual software engineers other than Deere's.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#57

Post by LgWoodenBadger »

robbedpeter wrote: post #29
CivBase wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume the customer has the information needed to make that decision before the purchase. In reality, most people don't have a reliable way to compare the repairability of products/brands before making a purchase. Even if they did, if the majority of the market doesn't valie repair, that can easily ruin it for those who do. It especially punishes those who are behind economically and can't afford replacements or…

Farmers are equipment nerds. It comes with the territory. They aren't an ignorant consumer market, which is why we're seeing a big push for right to repair from that industry - hopefully they carry the torch for ignorant consumers in computers and cars and other markets.

From what I’ve seen, maintenance is an afterthought, and even then only until something breaks. That’s where the right to repair comes in. Had they done the preventative maintenance, it likely wouldn’t have broken, alas…

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#58

Post by OnlineGladiator »

rafale wrote: post #45

John Deere will just claim they never sold him a tractor, but rather signed a custom contract with him that gives him access and custody of one in return of some constraints he agreed upon. If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market. But you could argue it's already undermined, both by the government itself and the fact that somehow John Deere managed to achieve a monopoly in a sector critical t…

> If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market.

Good. Sometimes we need regulation, otherwise bankers would crash the economy while getting bailouts with taxpayer money, workers would be paid below minimum wage, child labor would be rampant, and so on. The government is supposed to represent the people, although clearly money is the real voting power today. I'd like to see John Deere get sued into bankruptcy and laws set in place to avoid predatory techniques like this moving forward. I'm not hopeful though, and the stock market has certainly voted in favor of John Deere.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#59

Post by thrwyoilarticle »

rafale wrote: post #45

John Deere will just claim they never sold him a tractor, but rather signed a custom contract with him that gives him access and custody of one in return of some constraints he agreed upon. If the government intervenes, it would undermine the free market. But you could argue it's already undermined, both by the government itself and the fact that somehow John Deere managed to achieve a monopoly in a sector critical t…

The free market as it relates to farming is pure kayfabe. Subsidised, targeted crops* sold only to approved customers using publicly-funded roads.

*or even subsidising a lack of crops

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#60

Post by ipaddr »

aaron_m04 wrote: post #32
jbkiv wrote: post #28

This has become a general problem. There seems to be more money in "software services" than in building tractors and motors. John Deere is not unique. All common rail engines require a visit from a "certified engineer" who has access to the software. This is terrible in the marine industry where you can't get one in the middle of the ocean and you can't repair yourself either. What do you do? Do you sail to a harbor?…

Can't John Deere just have customers sign away their right to sue or be party to a class action? They could make that a requirement for new customers or customers seeking repairs.

You shouldn't be able to sign those rights away.
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