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Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

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Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#31
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahindra_Tractors FTFY. Seriously though, the point isn't that there are alternatives, but that one should have the right to repair whatever machine they own .

disclosure: im a diesel mechanic by trade and Mahindra's are a real treat!! I absolutely endorse Mahindra but if youre outside TN theyre kinda hard to come by. the tractors are less reliable than more modern western designs but faster and easier to repair by far. new head seals rocker arms valve guide seals and an oil change was 6 hours of labor and i actually started to enjoy it. bolts are over-built for what you ne…

less reliable than more modern western designs but faster and easier to repair by far

This sounds similar to the contrast between older and newer cars too; the older ones were designed to last with periodic scheduled maintenance, whereas newer ones are designed to have no maintenance for their "design life", after which it's difficult to repair.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#32
post #28

This has become a general problem. There seems to be more money in "software services" than in building tractors and motors. John Deere is not unique. All common rail engines require a visit from a "certified engineer" who has access to the software. This is terrible in the marine industry where you can't get one in the middle of the ocean and you can't repair yourself either. What do you do? Do you sail to a harbor?…

Can't John Deere just have customers sign away their right to sue or be party to a class action? They could make that a requirement for new customers or customers seeking repairs.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#33
post #28

This has become a general problem. There seems to be more money in "software services" than in building tractors and motors. John Deere is not unique. All common rail engines require a visit from a "certified engineer" who has access to the software. This is terrible in the marine industry where you can't get one in the middle of the ocean and you can't repair yourself either. What do you do? Do you sail to a harbor?…

I get what you are saying.... that we can use the law to gain the right to repair.

But step back - how is any of that morally right? Why should people have to fight corporation in court to get a basic right to repair the thing they bought? Its insane!

Surely, if there was any sense to this, the presumption would be in favour of the purchaser by default! Regardless of any service contract or other legal agreement. That it should be for the corporation to argue in court that there are some special circumstances that mean that default ruling does not apply, even though you bought (not rented) their product.

The fact it is this way round tells you all you need to know. At best, the consumer can waste time (10 years?) and money (lots) to hopefully (but perhaps not) prove the obvious case. OTOH, there is no incentive for the corporation not to try the dirtiest most unfriendly tactics they think they can get away with. Esp. if they have a near monopoly in their domain (eg John Deere).

For this reason and others, I see governance and law as captured entities - they are captured by corporations and we the consumers are there to have our wealth extracted from while retaining very few rights. Frankly, it is neo-feudalism. Or fascism (corporate+government together).

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#34
Hopefully people are directly lobbying Biden on this right now. Anti-monopoly action has been his only significant priority (and only deviation from the status quo.) IMO that's why he's being continually slammed in the media on easily predictable legislative failures on "progressive" legislation in this particular Congress. I'd suspect if polled on each component of his anti-monopoly orders, the public would give them 90%+ support, but those the papers ignore (allowing them to be quietly rolled back under the next POTUS, unnoticed.)

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#35
For industrial equipment (such as a tractor), who is liable for injuries if the equipment is repaired or modified by a 3rd party and it goes to court later?

https://www.biren.com/blog/2020/september/defective-machiner...

In particular https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/docs/caci/1200/1245...

> The [misuse/ [or] modification] was so highly extraordinary that it was not reasonably foreseeable to [name of defendant], and therefore should be considered as the sole cause of [name of plaintiff]’s harm.

So, if it was foreseeable that a 3rd party may modify some equipment in some way, the manufacturer must specifically warn the purchaser about "don't do that."

With software, this becomes a much more difficult challenge.

Additionally, https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/docs/caci/1200/1244...

> [Name of defendant] claims that [he/she/nonbinary pronoun/it] is notresponsible for any harm to [name of plaintiff] based on a failure to warn because [name of plaintiff] is a sophisticated user of the [product]. To succeed on this defense, [name of defendant] must prove that, at the time of the injury, [name of plaintiff], because of [his/her/nonbinary pronoun]particular position, training, experience, knowledge, or skill, knew or should have known of the [product]’s risk, harm, or danger.

So with software, either the user is a sophisticated user and aware of the implications of installing their own patches on the system and what that could do (over fertilize a field because of an incorrect setting on the gps calibration)... or they aren't. If they aren't a sophisticated user of the system, then it should be locked down sufficiently to prevent those changes.

> “The sophisticated user defense concerns warnings. Sophisticated users ‘arecharged with knowing the particular product’s dangers.’ ‘The rationale supporting the defense is that “the failure to provide warnings about risks already known to a sophisticated purchaser usually is not a proximate cause of harm resulting from those risks suffered by the buyer’s employees or downstream purchasers.”

So are we expecting farmers to be software engineers too?

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#36
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume the customer has the information needed to make that decision before the purchase. In reality, most people don't have a reliable way to compare the repairability of products/brands before making a purchase. Even if they did, if the majority of the market doesn't valie repair, that can easily ruin it for those who do. It especially punishes those who are behind economically and can't afford replacements or…

Farmers are equipment nerds. It comes with the territory. They aren't an ignorant consumer market, which is why we're seeing a big push for right to repair from that industry - hopefully they carry the torch for ignorant consumers in computers and cars and other markets.

Some are. Some aren't. I know farmers on both sides. You can't paint massive demographics with broad strokes like that.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#37
post #35

For industrial equipment (such as a tractor), who is liable for injuries if the equipment is repaired or modified by a 3rd party and it goes to court later? https://www.biren.com/blog/2020/september/defective-machiner... In particular https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/docs/caci/1200/1245... > The [misuse/ [or] modification] was so highly extraordinary that it was not reasonably foreseeable to [name of defendan…

ok - "you are too stupid to own this equipment" and "we know what is best for you" basically?

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#39
post #28

This has become a general problem. There seems to be more money in "software services" than in building tractors and motors. John Deere is not unique. All common rail engines require a visit from a "certified engineer" who has access to the software. This is terrible in the marine industry where you can't get one in the middle of the ocean and you can't repair yourself either. What do you do? Do you sail to a harbor?…

Can't John Deere just have customers sign away their right to sue or be party to a class action? They could make that a requirement for new customers or customers seeking repairs.

What about after the tractor is sold to someone else?

The EPA also doesn't like the idea of people making things not pass emissions.

Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’

#40
The example is of course egregious ($600 for a software update for a wire that got wet, basically). I fully support being able to repair your own stuff but I have no idea how you regulate this so companies don't gouge "owners" for aftermarket services.

Earlier today there was a thread about e-bike battery prices (tl'dr they're ridiculous expensive). I really wish rechargeable batteries had interchangeable form factors like normal batteries. I can't help but feel that if AA batteries were invented today there's no way there'd be a standard form factor.

But this issue is complicated. As much as first-party parts and accessories cost too much, there can be deadly consequences with shoddy third party products [1]:

> In July, a Chinese woman died after being electrocuted from a charging iPhone 5. Later that week, another man in China suffered a similar injury from a charging iPhone 4, leaving him comatose. In both cases, the victims were using an unofficial third-party adapter to charge their device.

So how do you guarantee something third-party will do what it claims to? If you use bad RAM chips in a Macbook, the consumer is going to blame Apple not whoever supplied cheap, shoddy parts (for the record, I hate soldered in RAM).

As an aside, I was unsurprised to see in this article this is a small farm. The harsh truth is that family farms and small farms in general are a dying way of life and just aren't competitive with industrial-scale agriculture. You can't fight the incoming tide forever.

[1]: https://appleinsider.com/articles/13/11/28/thai-man-dies-aft...

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