HR should have denoted an asterisk on each entry saying something to the effect of “to comply with hiring policy.”
And to use phrase like “try for more female”, instead of “must be female”.
Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
171–180 of 219 posts
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You bringing information to about another part of the company trying to do something illegal doesn't make you a "problem" employee. If you’re reading this and are in a similar situation, please don’t accept this advice without further reflection. On this particular topic, it could very well be wrong. If you’ve decided to report it then I’d suggest using your company’s outside anonymous reporting facility if such a…
I feel like people are treating this differently than I'm saying it. I'm not saying you go in there, and announce your whistle blowing on discrimination. I'm saying pop by someone's office, go "hey I got this document from Bob, I'm not really qualified to judge, is this kosher?" 99% chance they say no, they'll handle it. 1% chance they say yes, it's fine. If you hit that 1%, don't argue it, lawyer up or decide this i…
This isn't a casual question, this is a question about hiring practices. Who do you think dictates the hiring practices which this person's boss is putting into spreadsheets, etc? Going to HR first is going right to the source and saying, "is what you're doing legal?" This is not a smart move IMHO.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You bringing information to about another part of the company trying to do something illegal doesn't make you a "problem" employee. If you’re reading this and are in a similar situation, please don’t accept this advice without further reflection. On this particular topic, it could very well be wrong. If you’ve decided to report it then I’d suggest using your company’s outside anonymous reporting facility if such a…
I feel like people are treating this differently than I'm saying it. I'm not saying you go in there, and announce your whistle blowing on discrimination. I'm saying pop by someone's office, go "hey I got this document from Bob, I'm not really qualified to judge, is this kosher?" 99% chance they say no, they'll handle it. 1% chance they say yes, it's fine. If you hit that 1%, don't argue it, lawyer up or decide this i…
You seem like an intelligent, experienced person who might be out of step with the culture in many companies as it has changed over the past five, and, especially, the last two years. I would be very careful about bringing this issue to your local HR.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like people are treating this differently than I'm saying it. I'm not saying you go in there, and announce your whistle blowing on discrimination. I'm saying pop by someone's office, go "hey I got this document from Bob, I'm not really qualified to judge, is this kosher?" 99% chance they say no, they'll handle it. 1% chance they say yes, it's fine. If you hit that 1%, don't argue it, lawyer up or decide this i…
This isn't a casual question, this is a question about hiring practices. Who do you think dictates the hiring practices which this person's boss is putting into spreadsheets, etc? Going to HR first is going right to the source and saying, "is what you're doing legal?" This is not a smart move IMHO.
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Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#175It’s shocking to me how much the courts and executive branch have hollowed out the Civil Rights Act. > It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or natio…
It's mostly that they simply don't want to prosecute, nor have the resources to fully enforce all the laws. We're supposed to be a nation ruled by laws. We've become a nation ruled by men due to their power to simply ignore the laws when they feel like it.
> It's mostly that they simply don't want to prosecute,
Correct
> nor have the resources to fully enforce all the laws.
I don't think so. They have all the resources they need to enforce the law if they wanted to. If the spreadsheet had said "male" instead of "female" they would fly to Uranus to gather evidence if they needed to.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#176Legal. Illegal. Don't know. You should ask a lawyer.
I can tell that you are not comfortable with this. You suspect it's illegal and might still be uncomfortable even if it's not. Were I in your shoes, I would be looking for an exit strategy right quick.
(For full disclosure, I should mention I'm looking for an exit from my current job for entirely different reasons).
Do not swallow your own sense of right and wrong. Do not go along to get along. You will regret that deeply later on. Find an environment that doesn't make you worry that you might be participating in something illegal, or unethical, or immoral.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#177It’s shocking to me how much the courts and executive branch have hollowed out the Civil Rights Act. > It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or natio…
You can have laws on the books. Prosecutors have all the discretionary power: discretion NOT file a case to please their political allies, discretion to file a case using flimsy grounds to seek revenge against their political opponents, etc. As long as federal prosecutors don't care, "the law of the US" has no teeth.
It's not really about prosecution. The EEOC may or may not take interest in a case, but if they don't then the courts are wide open for plaintiffs. If you feel you have been discriminated against, you may have a case, and an attorney may be interested in pursuing it.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#178"must be female" Yes? It's illegal. This instruction removes the chance of any other member type of that protected class from being hired. You can report it to the NLRB, FBI/DOJ, or your state AG. You'll have to document everything while being careful not to break any recording/privacy laws. Not sure anything will really be done. Probably just bring hardship on yourself.
This is likely a matter for the EEOC or the state version. I don't see why those other agencies would be involved. Unlike OSHA, I don't think the EEOC has a process for accepting tips, and I don't think they open original investigations. I believe someone has to claim they have been harmed.
OP could encourage someone to apply, see if they get turned away on the basis of sex, and then they could file a charge of discrimination. That would probably be the most direct way.
However, I think this sort of explicit in-the-docs discrimination is unusual, and OP might find that they have already identified themselves to the employer. Of course, there are also rules against retaliation.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's mostly that they simply don't want to prosecute, nor have the resources to fully enforce all the laws. We're supposed to be a nation ruled by laws. We've become a nation ruled by men due to their power to simply ignore the laws when they feel like it.
> It's mostly that they simply don't want to prosecute, Correct > nor have the resources to fully enforce all the laws. I don't think so. They have all the resources they need to enforce the law if they wanted to. If the spreadsheet had said "male" instead of "female" they would fly to Uranus to gather evidence if they needed to.
"They have all the resources they need to enforce the law..."
Maybe an individual occurrence. Not at scale. If I remember correctly, 80+% of cases go to a plea deal, wait times for a court date are months or years, and the murder solve rate in the US is only 70%. To me, it sounds like the courts are overwhelmed and even the most serious crimes have a relatively low solve rate.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#180I'd be VERY careful here! Please evaluate YOUR OWN downside risk vs upside risk. Your supervisor has asked you discriminate. Politically, under current administration, almost EVERY enforcement body will not actually take action here even if its clear cut discrimination. Ie, they won't care. Out in the job market, if you are anti-diversity / take any steps to undermine a diversity initiative - that can follow you now…
I agree with all the above until this point:
> The company may have evaluated that the downside of NOT having women / minorities in positions is too high.
I don't think that's the exact calculus that gets made. I think it's more of a social process, where one person decides to suggest it, and anyone who has misgivings keeps their mouth shut, while anyone who thinks it's a good idea says so with enthusiasm. There probably was a time when hard-nosed cost-benefit evaluations governed decisions like these, but I think that's not how it tends to work currently (although there's enough variation across companies that who knows).