My question is what is wrong with the other brand? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGCO
Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
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Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#12A pretty good video on the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGH6pxNouCY
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#13Some ideas: If folks actually value "right to repair" support companies that offer right to repair. If no tractor company exists that offer the type of open setup you want and you think this is critical - start a company up and take out Deere and others. Deere's views on software changes by users in the field is pretty darn clear. My own view - having watched individuals and dealers etc "tune" trucks etc (with all th…
"don't like it? just build your own X" isn't a solution, it's a sneering dismissal: let them eat cake. we need regulation. force companies to provide a minimum standard of repairability.
Unfortunately 'regulation' is entirely in Deere's favor, thanks to the USPTO and their habit of allowing companies to claim underlying ideas rather than specific implementations.
E.g., US8874261 mentioned in this article:
https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2015/02/18/john-deere-patents-hyb...
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8874261B2/en?oq=8874261
Claim 1 from that patent:
A method for operating a mobile robot, the method comprising:
- Collecting range data of one or more objects in an environment around the robot;
- Identifying uniquely identifiable ones of the objects as navigation landmarks:
- Storing a reference map of the navigation landmarks based on the collected range data;
- Establishing a list or sequence of way points for the robot to visit, each way point defined with reference to one or more landmarks;
- Reading a message on a tag posted at or near one or more way points; and
- Managing a task based on the read message.
When this claim was granted by the USPTO, John Deere was given exclusive rights to the general concept of robot navigation between waypoiints with the addition of "reading a message on a tag" and acting accordingly. To the layman this language sounds specific enough, but those skilled in the art (or in possession of an HN user name) will recognize it as Turing equivalence. Indeed, the next few claims make it clear that ownership of the idea of conditional execution of tasks at waypoints is exactly the goal of the patent.
So, good luck building a competing farm implement that actually does anything useful. The "innovators" at Deere have made sure that you can do no such thing for the next 12 years.
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#14My question is what is wrong with the other brand? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGCO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahindra_Tractors
FTFY.
Seriously though, the point isn't that there are alternatives, but that one should have the right to repair whatever machine they own.
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
"don't like it? just build your own X" isn't a solution, it's a sneering dismissal: let them eat cake. we need regulation. force companies to provide a minimum standard of repairability.
Unfortunately 'regulation' is entirely in Deere's favor, thanks to the USPTO and their habit of allowing companies to claim underlying ideas rather than specific implementations. E.g., US8874261 mentioned in this article: https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2015/02/18/john-deere-patents-hyb... https://patents.google.com/patent/US8874261B2/en?oq=8874261 Claim 1 from that patent: A method for operating a mobile robot, the metho…
That's not how patents work. Each claim is not a patented thing. A chain of claims forms the patented thing. There's at least 9 dependent claims hanging on that first one.
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unfortunately 'regulation' is entirely in Deere's favor, thanks to the USPTO and their habit of allowing companies to claim underlying ideas rather than specific implementations. E.g., US8874261 mentioned in this article: https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2015/02/18/john-deere-patents-hyb... https://patents.google.com/patent/US8874261B2/en?oq=8874261 Claim 1 from that patent: A method for operating a mobile robot, the metho…
That's not how patents work. Each claim is not a patented thing. A chain of claims forms the patented thing. There's at least 9 dependent claims hanging on that first one.
The dependency chain flows upward, not downward. Later claims depend on the earlier ones that they reference ("2. The method of claim 1..."), but the presence of claim 2 does not alter the meaning or enforcability of claim 1.
(I should point out that IANAL, so if there are instances in which this isn't strictly correct, it'd be interesting to learn about them. Downvoting without comment doesn't enlighten anyone.)
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#17My question is what is wrong with the other brand? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGCO
You assume the customer has the information needed to make that decision before the purchase. In reality, most people don't have a reliable way to compare the repairability of products/brands before making a purchase. Even if they did, if the majority of the market doesn't valie repair, that can easily ruin it for those who do. It especially punishes those who are behind economically and can't afford replacements or "authorized" repair options (assuming they are even available).
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#18While this is great news; I unfortunately have to wonder how effective this is going to be. We need likely a much, much larger subset of farmers joining such a class action lawsuit - ideally from as many states as possible - to get this to change. Out of their greed; John Deere will fight this with all they have. I still think the best solution to this is still a startup that can create tractors that don’t require re…
> I still think the best solution to this is still a startup that can create tractors that don’t require repairs by a first party. You're still going up against massively entrenched and influential opposition that could likely undercut a startup's prices and then raise them again once the competition dies. We saw it with the rideshare companies. Their business models are flexible enough to take losses when necessary…
The issue is they are operating in the printer ink model where the initial price is discounted based on expected future revenue. That’s a hard nut to crack because any open competition is fighting from a seeming price disadvantage.
Re: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#19While this is great news; I unfortunately have to wonder how effective this is going to be. We need likely a much, much larger subset of farmers joining such a class action lawsuit - ideally from as many states as possible - to get this to change. Out of their greed; John Deere will fight this with all they have. I still think the best solution to this is still a startup that can create tractors that don’t require re…
Is it possible to invest in this lawsuit? Considering how Peter Theil invested in the Hogan lawsuit, perhaps there should be a legal investment concept. Edit: Well, it appears there is something like this already. "Crowd Justice" https://www.crowdjustice.com/
I would like to see a much broader decision, something
* applying to all products, not just ag
* allowing my choice of parts
* allow me or my choice of shop to work on it
* no cryptographic DRM'ed parts
* access to schematics, shop manuals, and admin/interface softwareRe: Alabama farmer sues John Deere for ‘right to repair’
#20While this is great news; I unfortunately have to wonder how effective this is going to be. We need likely a much, much larger subset of farmers joining such a class action lawsuit - ideally from as many states as possible - to get this to change. Out of their greed; John Deere will fight this with all they have. I still think the best solution to this is still a startup that can create tractors that don’t require re…
Is it possible to invest in this lawsuit? Considering how Peter Theil invested in the Hogan lawsuit, perhaps there should be a legal investment concept. Edit: Well, it appears there is something like this already. "Crowd Justice" https://www.crowdjustice.com/
IIRC, investing in lawsuits can also open you up to liability if you lose.