This is something I've tried to figure out in detail due to past similar circumstances. What you're being asked to do is almost certainly illegal. There are a couple small carve-outs for very specific situations, but I would bet almost anything your company has not set up the paper trail to make sure they're in those small carve outs. Either way, what they're doing is morally wrong and will lead to worse outcomes for…
Thanks for these ideas. Do you have any recs on where or how to find a lawyer for the advice call?
Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
151–160 of 219 posts
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
HR only exists to protect the company from liability and lawsuits. Talk to them first at your own risk, and realize that almost no good can come from doing so. At best they will now see you as a 'problem' employee that is asking too many questions, and at worst it could start a chain of actions that lead to your termination or leaving the company (for completely unrelated reasons of course).
> HR only exists to protect the company from liability and lawsuits. Exactly. This is exactly why HR will want to know this is happening. So they can shut it down. A half decent HR department will recognize that this carries major risk of lawsuits, and want it killed. You bringing information to about another part of the company trying to do something illegal doesn't make you a "problem" employee. There are a lot of…
Doesn't really seem like an "off chance" to me that this would come from either the Chief People Officer, or someone else sufficiently high up in the food chain that they can tell HR to fall back in line.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#153Decisions like these from companies just lead to resentment. Engineers start to feel like minority engineers are just diversity hires. In this case they are right which leads to animosity by the established engineers and a feeling of being disliked because of their minority status by the new hire. In most cases the minority engineer does not even know they had an advantage and will likely take a massive confidence hi…
As an engineer I don’t really care- have I been discriminated against ? maybe, have I been privileged? Absolutely
With all the biases that humans have someone is always getting shafted - nothing is always 100% fair
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#154Many tech companies are actively discriminating against asian/white males. Often it is tech companies run by asian/white males. Affirmative action is the default policy. The main way I've seen this implemented is by controlling who gets recruited through LinkedIn. Obviously qualified asian/white men simply get skipped over, filtered out, in many cases. They never even know they were discriminated against. The other w…
> Many tech companies are actively discriminating against asian/white males Reminds me of a saying I heard once: “always try and get an asian male doctor because they are discriminated against the most in med school admissions programs. The asian men who made it past the discrimination had to be so much better than the others to make it.”
Say you have a software engineering team, and it's nine men and one woman, and it's that way because the pool you hire out if is 9:1, and you only hire from the top decile.
If someone decrees that Thou Shalt Hire Women, you certainly can...it's just that the candidates you get will be less than in the top decile. If you go as far as to make it to 5:5, then your average man will now be top half decile, and the average woman will be 2.5th decile.
The difference will be obvious, though costly to talk about, and you have just created a situation where the stereotype "women aren't as good as men at software engineering" is true.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#155Quoted post unavailable.
Quoted post unavailable.
Like,
Aiui (this is from memory and I don’t remember where I read this, so you should take it with a good serving of salt), the term “gender” previously meant simply “type”/“kind”/“sort”, but became a euphemism for specifically the concept which was at that time known as “sex”, in the sense of like, the general typology of people into two major classes, one masculine/“the male sex” and one feminine/“the female sex”. I’m not sure the reason a euphemism was used for this. I’m not sure if it was because of the word “sex” also being used for “sexual intercourse”, or if that came later . Regardless, this use of the word “gender” usurped its previous meaning as meaning “type”, and largely overtook the word “sex” as the common/polite way to say it.
As such, at this time, the question/answer pair “What is the patient’s gender?” “The patient is male.” would have been, as I understand it, perfectly normal.
I imagine that, over time, with the word “gender” being used more of the time that “sex” would have previously been used to refer to the typology as it was then understood, the term “sex” became more strongly associated with sexual intercourse, and became more uncomfortable to use . (I know that probably like, 8-9 years ago, I felt uncomfortable using it to refer to the general typology. Of course, this is after the change I will describe next.)
Now, having this pair of different words that largely were used for the same thing, must have been quite convenient for the social theorists / social architects, who promoted a new* distinction . (* new in the sense of common familiarity etc, not in the sense of “there was previously absolutely no concept at all of [...]”. Of course there has been much historical precedent of a number of concepts of [thing] beyond the usual two. Check out the etymology of the word “bad”. As Ecclesiastes says, there is nothing new under the sun.) Unsurprisingly, when dividing the one concept into two concepts, they chose to assign the one which they wanted to be considered to be the more important/relevant one, to the word which was more comfortable/less awkward to use.
And, being recognized by some as authorities, they managed to get this assignment of this division of a concept into two, assigned in the popular use, to these two distinct words.
However, I don’t think that at any point in this story, that “male/female” became uncommon as a name for both versions of the concept?
I would understand an attempt to associate male/female exclusively with “sex” in order to attempt to use the common-ness of “male”/“female” to re-orient things to have more of the emphasis on the concept which is now commonly referred to as “sex”, in much the same way that the naming of the two worked to put an emphasis on the concept now known as “gender”,
but, I don’t think that the fact of the matter is that many people tend to use “male” and “female” exclusively for “sex”.
I suppose there is a faction which tends to (especially in the case of “female”)? But it isn’t the majority.
I don’t claim that one shouldn’t attempt to influence how language changes over time to make it more in accordance with one’s preferences. I also have preferences about how language changes over time, and where I can, I try to further those preferences (e.g. I would prefer that people avoid using the word “literally” for emphasis, and I sometimes seek to further this goal by, mentioning it to people when I see them use it contrary to my preferences.)
But, as a fact-claim about the common meaning-i.e.-usage of the word “female”, the claim that “female” refers only to a “sex” and not to a “gender”, is (currently! This could change!) incorrect (except within certain circles).
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have thought about leaving. My first goal is to confirm that I really understand what I'm observing. I don't want to resign because of a legal issue only to discover later that it's not actually illegal and I misread the situation. I have no animosity for the company or the leaders. No desire to "take them down" or cause any drama. But avoiding drama definitely wouldn't be a reason to do something illegal imo.
Not wanting to violate labor law and anti discrimination regulations isn’t “causing drama”. It’s wanting to avoid civil and criminal repercussions, both against the corporation and individuals personally. If you don’t get a satisfactory answer, report them to the US Dept of Labor/EEOC. I’d also recommend reporting them to the labor board in whichever state their headquarters is located (or what they consider their HQ…
I’m not sure quite what you mean when you say it «isn’t “causing drama”». It seems to me like some actions taken out of a desire to avoid violating labor law and anti-discrimination regulations, could result in people being upset with people, etc. which could be called “drama”. If you interpret “causing drama” as meaning, acting with a motivation of causing drama, then yes, as you say, acting with a motivation of avoiding violating [stuff] is not acting with a motivation of causing drama.
(I have no comment on what they should do; I imagine you are likely correct on that front, idk.)
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're right, but point 3 means that even under United Steelworkers v. Weber the policy in the original question may be illegal. " Must be female" is an instruction to bar the non-minority completely from this position, so as another comment says it depends on if that bar on complete bars applies to individual positions or whole departments.
Consider you are going to hire 10 mid-career SWEs this year (as a generic pool) and you set aside 2 slots for females, because the current org of 50 is all male.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
The issue with DSA is that some hiring managers will inevitably try to game the system. A friend once shared a strategy he saw at BigCorp - a hiring manager would fill the pipeline with 10 quality applicants, but if none of them matched the diversity requirement, that manager would add 2-3 diversity candidates that were horrible fits. They still started the interview loop, but failed miserably compared to a normal ca…
Supply will never be fully resolved from a minority pool; there are less of them - the definition of a minority.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#159It is common in big companies. These days, HR is heavy on hiring women and minorities. No whites, no Indians, etc. Definitely not illegal.
It's kind of mind-boggling that we're in this situation where illegal discrimination in hiring is not only tolerated, but generally encouraged.
Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Supply will never be fully resolved from a minority pool; there are less of them - the definition of a minority.
The supply of diverse talent can only be sourced from candidates with a diverse background. In that sense - they are the majority, not the minority.