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Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

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Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#141

Post by xyzzyz »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #46

I'd file it under affirmative action [1], which is not illegal in most countries/states (on the contrary). Lots of commenters here simply cite single paragraphs from anti-discrimination laws but what they don't understand is that the laws often allow organizations to correct bias by giving preferential treatment to underrepresented groups. The logic behind is that the majority group (e.g. white caucasian young males)…

> Quota-based hiring / candidate selection is one way to solve this problem.

Quota based hiring is explicitly illegal in the US (Gratz v. Bollinger)

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#142

Post by LurkersWillLurk »

You should talk to an employment lawyer before you go to HR or anyone in your company. You also have the right to file a complaint with the EEOC, but I would not do that until you talk to a lawyer.

The reason why you need to talk to a lawyer is that your lawyer is ethically obligated to represent your best interests, not your company's.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#144

Post by xyzzyz »

tpoacher wrote: post #137

I think the more pertinent question is, why would you want to continue working for such a company.

Most companies these days are doing exactly the same, the more competent ones just don’t put it in writing, leaving paper trail. You can’t escape this sort of systemic discrimination, it permeates the society to the bone.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#145

Post by __turbobrew__ »

svloophole wrote: post #80

Many tech companies are actively discriminating against asian/white males. Often it is tech companies run by asian/white males. Affirmative action is the default policy. The main way I've seen this implemented is by controlling who gets recruited through LinkedIn. Obviously qualified asian/white men simply get skipped over, filtered out, in many cases. They never even know they were discriminated against. The other w…

> Many tech companies are actively discriminating against asian/white males

Reminds me of a saying I heard once: “always try and get an asian male doctor because they are discriminated against the most in med school admissions programs. The asian men who made it past the discrimination had to be so much better than the others to make it.”

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#146

Post by CodeGlitch »

lolinder wrote: post #85
CodeGlitch wrote: post #66

When filling out forms when it includes DIE questions, the best approach is to check all the boxes. If anyone questions it they can land themselves in real deep water. The best way to combat this nonsense is peaceful protesting.

They don't have to question your checked boxes to your face, they can just immediately reject you when it's obvious you're not what they're actually looking for.

"I identify as female"

The hole that the left has dug itself is very very deep at this point.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#147

Post by DangerousPie »

ravenstine wrote: post #92
DangerousPie wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, isn't that what I said? They can treat people with a characteristic more favourably, but they can't exclude people without that characteristic from the start. I guess the difference is whether you can hire a minority candidate even if they are objectively less qualified for a job? My understanding was that you could only use the characteristics as a tie breaker if two candidates were otherwise the same, but mayb…

> Hmm, isn't that what I said? They can treat people with a characteristic more favourably, but they can't exclude people without that characteristic from the start. How would one even begin to prove the difference? This seems like some sort of mental gymnastic to explain away well meaning discrimination. If I had a thing against men, I'd take their applications, maybe give a few of them interviews for the sake of pl…

Well that's a problem you always have with subjective decisions during hiring. At the end of the day you'll most likely get away with it unless you're being as blatant as OP's company. But it only takes one disgruntled whistleblower to get yourself into trouble.

And at least historically it's usually been the men who benefitted from this.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#148

Post by astura »

Hamuko wrote: post #67
lokar wrote: post #7

A quick web search finds some answers. eg https://www.spigglelaw.com/employment-blog/employers-affirma... """ Title VII prohibits employers from making employment decisions because of an individual’s skin color, national origin, sex, religion, or race. Therefore, it is illegal to give an applicant an advantage solely because of the applicant’s race. However, this is not always the case. Under United Steelworkers of A…

> However, this is permissible only if the purpose is to remediate past failures to hire minority employees in areas that contain few minorities. Women are obviously not a minority in the US, but does this apply if they're a minority in a particular field (such as engineering)?

In this case "minority" refers to the sociological definition, not the mathematical definition.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#149

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

anon926310 wrote: post #41
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #35

This is something I've tried to figure out in detail due to past similar circumstances. What you're being asked to do is almost certainly illegal. There are a couple small carve-outs for very specific situations, but I would bet almost anything your company has not set up the paper trail to make sure they're in those small carve outs. Either way, what they're doing is morally wrong and will lead to worse outcomes for…

Thanks for these ideas. Do you have any recs on where or how to find a lawyer for the advice call?

The usual first stop advice is your local bar association. Tell them what you're looking for and they should be able to provide recommendations.

Next-level might be looking up similar cases in the past and talking to the attorneys who worked on them.

Of course, if you have any sympathetic lawyer friends you might ask them too!

As an aside, thank you for caring and for doing something about this :-)

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#150

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

Volundr wrote: post #38
ipnon wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems pretty clear cut to me that if your company hasn't been found guilty of discrimination in the past, then it's illegal for the company to institute "affirmative action." That being said, it's usually the company that receives penalties in these situations, and not individual employees. If a lawsuit is made, and the lawsuit is successful (a big "if" in itself), it's not a guarantee that you will be held person…

Obviously IANAL, but I don't read "remediate past failures" as requiring a guilty verdict in court to institute affirmative action.

I think the company in question would need to have a document titled something like "Affirmative Action Plan", where they outline the failures and talk about what they're going to do, as well as set an end date. I'd bet a lot of money the company in question does not have this.
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