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Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

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Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#31

Post by ipnon »

lokar wrote: post #7

A quick web search finds some answers. eg https://www.spigglelaw.com/employment-blog/employers-affirma... """ Title VII prohibits employers from making employment decisions because of an individual’s skin color, national origin, sex, religion, or race. Therefore, it is illegal to give an applicant an advantage solely because of the applicant’s race. However, this is not always the case. Under United Steelworkers of A…

It seems pretty clear cut to me that if your company hasn't been found guilty of discrimination in the past, then it's illegal for the company to institute "affirmative action."

That being said, it's usually the company that receives penalties in these situations, and not individual employees. If a lawsuit is made, and the lawsuit is successful (a big "if" in itself), it's not a guarantee that you will be held personally liable.

Ultimately, the whole thing stinks. I have worked in companies before where hiring based on discrimination was applauded. This was because individuals were being judged on the most superficial merits, cogs in a startup machine to be slowly ground into a fine dust. Ask yourself if you think this is a moral thing for a company to do, and if it's moral for you to go along with it. It's easy for talented people to get new jobs in our industry.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#33

Post by qorrect »

lokar wrote: post #25
candiddevmike wrote: post #10

Quoted post unavailable.

What do you gain from being so intentionally offensive and hurtful to people who have done nothing to you?

Where in the world do you get _intentionally_ offensive ? Everyone gets offended now a days, I would bet very little of it is actually intentional, but people like you are putting intent into peoples actions when you simply cannot know what the poster was thinking. That is god damn offensive.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#34

Post by qbasic_forever »

Volundr wrote: post #29

Assuming you have one, it might be worth talking to your HR department to clarify these instructions. Maybe there is something you aren't getting, or this is something setup by clueless management and they are unaware and would want to intervene. Beyond that when in doubt, talk to a lawyer. At first glance to me (I am not a lawyer) this seems like it's probably illegal, but it's entirely possible there are nuances to…

HR only exists to protect the company from liability and lawsuits. Talk to them first at your own risk, and realize that almost no good can come from doing so. At best they will now see you as a 'problem' employee that is asking too many questions, and at worst it could start a chain of actions that lead to your termination or leaving the company (for completely unrelated reasons of course).

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#35

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

This is something I've tried to figure out in detail due to past similar circumstances. What you're being asked to do is almost certainly illegal. There are a couple small carve-outs for very specific situations, but I would bet almost anything your company has not set up the paper trail to make sure they're in those small carve outs. Either way, what they're doing is morally wrong and will lead to worse outcomes for both under-privileged people and everyone else.

You have a couple different possible moves here:

1) Bring it up to your company's HR, compliance people, or legal team. If you want to stay and look good, this is an okay move. Frame it as, "This probably exposes us to A LOT of liability, no? Just thought I'd let you know".

2) Report them to the relevant authorities. This is the EEOC at the Department of Labor (Federal) and your state's EEOC or EEOC-equivalent. If you're planning on leaving I would definitely do this. Gather evidence of the illegal activity first and then submit. Many states will have whistleblower protections such that what the company can do to hurt you is very limited. You may even end up getting paid for no work.

3) Develop a list of candidates who were illegally discriminated against and notify them. They can then sue the company themselves.

1, 2, and 3 aren't exclusive. You can do a combination: for instance, let the company know and report them to EEOC. If you have the means and want to do a little good in the world, I think spending a couple hundred dollars on talking to a lawyer for an hour or two is a good move as well.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#36

Post by mrkurt »

ipnon wrote: post #31
lokar wrote: post #7

A quick web search finds some answers. eg https://www.spigglelaw.com/employment-blog/employers-affirma... """ Title VII prohibits employers from making employment decisions because of an individual’s skin color, national origin, sex, religion, or race. Therefore, it is illegal to give an applicant an advantage solely because of the applicant’s race. However, this is not always the case. Under United Steelworkers of A…

It seems pretty clear cut to me that if your company hasn't been found guilty of discrimination in the past, then it's illegal for the company to institute "affirmative action." That being said, it's usually the company that receives penalties in these situations, and not individual employees. If a lawsuit is made, and the lawsuit is successful (a big "if" in itself), it's not a guarantee that you will be held person…

> It seems pretty clear cut to me that if your company hasn't been found guilty of discrimination in the past, then it's illegal for the company to institute "affirmative action."

That's not what United Steelworkers v. Weber established though. The supreme court said:

> An affirmative action plan has to be (1) necessary (2) aiming to correct a statistical imbalance (3) not result in an absolute bar to hiring non-minorities (4) temporary, with an end date or goal (5) allow flexibility for hiring non-minorities.

There's no bar for "has been found guilty in the past".

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#37

Post by readthenotes1 »

lokar wrote: post #25
candiddevmike wrote: post #10

Quoted post unavailable.

What do you gain from being so intentionally offensive and hurtful to people who have done nothing to you?

Are you referring to the qualified cis bipoc male who is being redlined?

Sex vs gender is a legit disambiguation.

Based on the recent post of a guy who said he represented as a black lesbian woman on his resume to get a job, verification is also legit.

(There was also a recent study that said that 30% of Whites misrepresented their race on their college application.)

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#38

Post by Volundr »

ipnon wrote: post #31
lokar wrote: post #7

A quick web search finds some answers. eg https://www.spigglelaw.com/employment-blog/employers-affirma... """ Title VII prohibits employers from making employment decisions because of an individual’s skin color, national origin, sex, religion, or race. Therefore, it is illegal to give an applicant an advantage solely because of the applicant’s race. However, this is not always the case. Under United Steelworkers of A…

It seems pretty clear cut to me that if your company hasn't been found guilty of discrimination in the past, then it's illegal for the company to institute "affirmative action." That being said, it's usually the company that receives penalties in these situations, and not individual employees. If a lawsuit is made, and the lawsuit is successful (a big "if" in itself), it's not a guarantee that you will be held person…

Obviously IANAL, but I don't read "remediate past failures" as requiring a guilty verdict in court to institute affirmative action.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#39

Post by anon926310 »

DangerousPie wrote: post #22

Might be worth asking Reddit's r/legaladvice (but take what they say with a grain of salt). In the UK this would be illegal afaik - you are only allowed to favour one sex over the other if there are two equivalent applicants for a position and you are trying to counteract an existing imbalance in your team. But you can't outright reject one sex from the start.

Done! https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/sayz3d/am_i_be...

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#40

Post by ajb »

mynegation wrote: post #27

If your company is large enough, you should have an HR department and HR person working with you directly as a hiring manager. Reach out to them. Do everything in writing (emails), refuse to get any guidance on the phone. Get approval from them. If you are still unsure - ask to involve company’s legal department. Print the finished email threads, store outside your place of work.

If you are worried that you are being asked to do something illegal, you should get your own legal advice. The companies lawyer is obliged to protect them, not you.

Having said that, the above is probably good advice in many situations. Just not if you have an concern that you might personally get sued or prosecuted.

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