How trust undermines science • Hacker News Board

Re: How trust undermines science

#41

Post by nitwit005 » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:38 PM UTC

jimsimmons wrote: post #2

We should respect people questioning science as long as they are doing it in good faith and are showing willingness to learn. We should even respect flat earthers and climate change deniers. They improve rigour and identify blindspots.

The problem with the flat earthers, and the more conspiratorial portion of the climate deniers, is it's not clear even the people making the claims believe it. They don't seem to mind ideas that contradict theirs, so long as the central belief that there is some sort of vast conspiracy is upheld.

You can't really engage with people who aren't all that interested in what's actually true.

Re: How trust undermines science

#42

Post by thethirdone » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:41 PM UTC

PeterWhittaker wrote: post #35

thethirdone wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literacy does not imply believing in the round earth. Proving the earth is round to yourself without trusting outside influences is not a trivial pursuit.

Fairly trivial: https://www.astro.princeton.edu/~dns/teachersguide/MeasECAct...

Unfortunately, atmospheric effects make it hard to completely remove doubt. This is definitely evidence that round earth is true, but not conclusive.

It also requires you being able to derive those equations which is more than many people would be comfortable with.

Especially if you think that "they" are lying to you, this could be a repeatable but cherry-picked piece of evidence that has a requires a more complicated explanation.

Re: How trust undermines science

#43

Post by daenz » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:42 PM UTC

raziel2701 wrote: post #15

jimsimmons wrote: post #2

We should respect people questioning science as long as they are doing it in good faith and are showing willingness to learn. We should even respect flat earthers and climate change deniers. They improve rigour and identify blindspots.

> We should even respect flat earthers No those people need mental healthcare. They have a very debilitating dysfunction, an inability to see reality.

>debilitating

What about believing a bizarre idea is debilitating enough to require mental health intervention?

Re: How trust undermines science

#44

Post by SantalBlush » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:44 PM UTC

dools wrote: post #24

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually love flat earthers BECAUSE it forces me to actually think about how "I Know" the world is round. I bet a majority of people who are anti-flat earthers could not actually "prove" the earth is round without immediately appealing to authority. I've talked to flat earthers, (both probably real and some probably trolling), and it can be a fun intellectual exercise to debate.

You are allowed to appeal to authority. The "Argument from Authority" fallacy only applies when you appeal to a false authority, such as listening to your yoga instructor's opinions on vaccination. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

People on HN tend to hate appeals to scientific authority, but you are right. Our resources for obtaining out own knowledge and expertise are limited, and trusting other experts is a useful heuristic that, while imperfect, is more effective than alternatives.

Anyone who claims they have the requisite expertise and resources to verify most scientific facts on their own is lying.

Re: How trust undermines science

#45

Post by threatofrain » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:44 PM UTC

version_five wrote: post #10

mmastrac wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should even respect flat earthers You lost me here. Basic literacy is a requirement for any fruitful debate

It's an interesting thought exercise to take some belief and ask yourself how you know, and asking until you get to some first principles or axioms or articles of faith. Part of that exercise could include coming up with plausible alternate explanations for what you perceive. Flat earth is just a ridiculous version of such a thought experiment. It's a good exercise to make sure your understanding of the world around…

Faith and trust are subtly different things, and trust is both a skill and talent. When a poker player makes bets, one of the things they do is ask how much they trust a reading of the situation, and often times that's the best they've got. A poker player also does not rely on axioms because almost all propositions they could come up with would have no answer.

For most people, life is more like poker than math.

Re: How trust undermines science

#46

Post by nitwit005 » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:48 PM UTC

thethirdone wrote: post #7

mmastrac wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should even respect flat earthers You lost me here. Basic literacy is a requirement for any fruitful debate

Literacy does not imply believing in the round earth. Proving the earth is round to yourself without trusting outside influences is not a trivial pursuit.

It's much harder to prove the Earth is flat. You run into really basic questions like, where is the edge, and why does no one find it?

The theory only "holds together", with the assumption that everyone that works in any field even vaguely related to travel or communication is part of a conspiracy to hide the truth.

Re: How trust undermines science

#47

Post by bnamx » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:48 PM UTC

raziel2701 wrote: post #15

jimsimmons wrote: post #2

We should respect people questioning science as long as they are doing it in good faith and are showing willingness to learn. We should even respect flat earthers and climate change deniers. They improve rigour and identify blindspots.

> We should even respect flat earthers No those people need mental healthcare. They have a very debilitating dysfunction, an inability to see reality.

No post body was provided.

Re: How trust undermines science

#48

Post by CivBase » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:48 PM UTC

It's not just replication that's the problem. It's poorly designed studies, intended from the start to support a narrative, whose results are poorly interpreted by members of the media for their own benefit.

Re: How trust undermines science

#49

Post by tremon » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:49 PM UTC

tarboreus wrote: post #25

mmastrac wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should even respect flat earthers You lost me here. Basic literacy is a requirement for any fruitful debate

You're saying you should only respect literate people. I say all people are fundamentally worthy of respect.

Are you saying there's nothing anybody can do to lose your respect?

Re: How trust undermines science

#50

Post by kodah » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:49 PM UTC

hhs wrote: post #9

jimsimmons wrote: post #2

We should respect people questioning science as long as they are doing it in good faith and are showing willingness to learn. We should even respect flat earthers and climate change deniers. They improve rigour and identify blindspots.

Maybe, but many times media groups take advantage of this to create a false balance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance

I think the major hurdle to that statement is that false balances are hard to quantify in the moment. Worse, when "false balance" is claimed and it turns out that the popular belief at the time was both wrong and influenced in some way it damages public trust even further.