How trust undermines science • Hacker News Board

Re: How trust undermines science

#11

Post by hirundo » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 9:39 PM UTC

"To me, the phenomenon of widespread trust in goofy claims is much more interesting than the fact of goofy claims not being real. What does it mean to trust science?"

Science is a system to distinguish between a fact and a shibboleth. That process is at the core of epistemology, and it is always non-trivial, because goofy is in the eye of the beholder. Whatever your politics or religion, you can easily see these shibboleths in other tribes, but they are usually invisible in your own. To apply science to your own tribe's shibboleths is an act of distrust.

Re: How trust undermines science

#12

Post by einpoklum » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 9:44 PM UTC

The "science" derived from ultra-skewed samples collected by grad students or even tenured academics for social scenario experimentation is inherently shaky and does not merit much trust.

Re: How trust undermines science

#13

Post by jimsimmons » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 9:45 PM UTC

version_five wrote: post #10

mmastrac wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should even respect flat earthers You lost me here. Basic literacy is a requirement for any fruitful debate

It's an interesting thought exercise to take some belief and ask yourself how you know, and asking until you get to some first principles or axioms or articles of faith. Part of that exercise could include coming up with plausible alternate explanations for what you perceive. Flat earth is just a ridiculous version of such a thought experiment. It's a good exercise to make sure your understanding of the world around…

Exactly. Believing in narrated science is no different than believing the mumbo jumbo they throw at you in scifi movies. For me the halting problem seems like common sense / basic science but it’s not for everybody. That’s where we need to recognise that what’s obvious or basic to us isn’t so for others. And that is a good thing!

Re: How trust undermines science

#14

Post by amelius » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 9:45 PM UTC

jimsimmons wrote: post #2

We should respect people questioning science as long as they are doing it in good faith and are showing willingness to learn. We should even respect flat earthers and climate change deniers. They improve rigour and identify blindspots.

I would respect flat earthers if they published in peer-reviewed journals.

Re: How trust undermines science

#15

Post by raziel2701 » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 9:48 PM UTC

jimsimmons wrote: post #2

We should respect people questioning science as long as they are doing it in good faith and are showing willingness to learn. We should even respect flat earthers and climate change deniers. They improve rigour and identify blindspots.

> We should even respect flat earthers

No those people need mental healthcare. They have a very debilitating dysfunction, an inability to see reality.

Re: How trust undermines science

#16

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 9:55 PM UTC

jimsimmons wrote: post #2

We should respect people questioning science as long as they are doing it in good faith and are showing willingness to learn. We should even respect flat earthers and climate change deniers. They improve rigour and identify blindspots.

[deleted]

Re: How trust undermines science

#17

Post by mhh__ » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 9:58 PM UTC

jimsimmons wrote: post #2

We should respect people questioning science as long as they are doing it in good faith and are showing willingness to learn. We should even respect flat earthers and climate change deniers. They improve rigour and identify blindspots.

Climate Change "deniers" like Richard Mueller was, are useful, flat earthers and climate change grifters solely confuse the public and distract (usually extremely overworked and underpaid) scientists.

Re: How trust undermines science

#18

Post by mhh__ » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:00 PM UTC

thethirdone wrote: post #7

mmastrac wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should even respect flat earthers You lost me here. Basic literacy is a requirement for any fruitful debate

Literacy does not imply believing in the round earth. Proving the earth is round to yourself without trusting outside influences is not a trivial pursuit.

These days all you need is someone with a phone and a stick in another country to perform Erastosthenes's experiment, right?

Re: How trust undermines science

#19

Post by 0xcde4c3db » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:01 PM UTC

thethirdone wrote: post #7

mmastrac wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should even respect flat earthers You lost me here. Basic literacy is a requirement for any fruitful debate

Literacy does not imply believing in the round earth. Proving the earth is round to yourself without trusting outside influences is not a trivial pursuit.

The thing is that functionally speaking, the flat Earth movement isn't about proving whether the Earth is round or flat. It's about camaraderie in the quest for the hidden knowledge that "they" don't want you to have.

Re: How trust undermines science

#20

Post by NikolaeVarius » Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

version_five wrote: post #10

mmastrac wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should even respect flat earthers You lost me here. Basic literacy is a requirement for any fruitful debate

It's an interesting thought exercise to take some belief and ask yourself how you know, and asking until you get to some first principles or axioms or articles of faith. Part of that exercise could include coming up with plausible alternate explanations for what you perceive. Flat earth is just a ridiculous version of such a thought experiment. It's a good exercise to make sure your understanding of the world around…

I actually love flat earthers BECAUSE it forces me to actually think about how "I Know" the world is round.

I bet a majority of people who are anti-flat earthers could not actually "prove" the earth is round without immediately appealing to authority.

I've talked to flat earthers, (both probably real and some probably trolling), and it can be a fun intellectual exercise to debate.