Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list • Hacker News Board

Re: Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

#51

Post by hga » Fri, Sep 16, 2011, 12:06 PM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #43

buff-a wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is one thing that readers of HN should appreciate, it is the value of Influence. Facebook had value simply because it could put a message in front of 500 million people. Organized Religion's primary purpose is Influence. Argue that it is "for a good cause", to "save souls", if you want. That is opinion. That they have Influence is fact. That they use this Influence to induce their members to spend money is f…

I didn't downvote you -- but perhaps you were downvoted because while organized religions do have influence, that doesn't imply that the purpose of organized religion is influence. An attribute of a thing is not necessarily the purpose of a thing; just because my cat has fur doesn't mean my cat's purpose is 'fur'. You may have also been downvoted because your comment seemed disrespectful or simplistic in its attitude…

Although it's worth pointing out that Google should care very much about the "influence" of the parts of society it openly favors or [ insert antonym here, it's too early in the morning ].

Google has gained a lot of enemies for a variety of reasons, size and success in particular. It's going to need the favor and good will of as much of the nation as possible to survive the increasingly vicious attacks on it from competitors or those who simply like to attack the big (envy, or just big pockets).

There's long been a correct (I believe) perception that Google leans strongly to the Left, and in a country where "the Left" is outnumbered 2-1 by "the Right" I can't see that being wise. This action of theirs as of yesterday was gaining a lot of attention on the Right, and even agnostics like myself are not pleased (because I know churches do a lot of good, something very strongly reinforced this summer after a tornado ripped through the middle of my city, Joplin, Missouri).

I'm not saying Google should favor the Right, but at least it should not go out of its way to piss it off. It simply can't afford that sort of thing given its status today.

Re: Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

#52

Post by vacri » Fri, Sep 16, 2011, 12:23 PM UTC

danssig wrote: post #50

vacri wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon me, did I say that? I was responding to the absolutist phrase " None of them". Stop putting words in my mouth. Please, tell me anywhere in my comment you responded to where I made any mention or judgement of other kinds of non-profits, particularly "big" ones.

>There are plenty of religious organisations whose purpose is to line the leaders' pockets with money. These seems to imply that other non-profits don't. Otherwise why point out one specific group?

That "one specific group" was the "one specific group" the prior comment was picking up on from it's parent. Did you bother to read the two comments before mine to get the context of my comment, or did you just see it and attack it out of the blue?

Re: Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

#53

Post by jleyank » Fri, Sep 16, 2011, 12:42 PM UTC

I'm sure it's been said before and will be said again - so it goes. Formal non-profit status should be lost whenever the organization engages in political activity. I am not comfortable subsidizing (via a tax break) activities that are hostile to me or my world view. I surely don't want to support hostile lobby groups.

Re: Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

#54

Post by tincholio » Fri, Sep 16, 2011, 12:58 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #25

richardw wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a long continuum between charlatan and saint. A vanishingly small number of organisations are more occupied with their original reasons for being than with ensuring their leaders have a reasonable lifestyle. A friend of mine, a priest, did some research that included how many priests still believe in a god. He wasn't allowed to release his findings. (edit - didn't down-vote you, btw) (2nd edit. He continues…

I heard a couple of priests-cum-public-atheists on the radio, saying that when they did their doctorates in divinity, where you learn a hell of a lot more of the history and politics of christianity, the running joke was "if you still believe in a god after learning all that, it just shows you weren't listening"

The very fact that you can do a doctorate in 'divinty' or theology is a joke...

Re: Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

#55

Post by mikegreenberg » Fri, Sep 16, 2011, 1:08 PM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #43

buff-a wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is one thing that readers of HN should appreciate, it is the value of Influence. Facebook had value simply because it could put a message in front of 500 million people. Organized Religion's primary purpose is Influence. Argue that it is "for a good cause", to "save souls", if you want. That is opinion. That they have Influence is fact. That they use this Influence to induce their members to spend money is f…

I didn't downvote you -- but perhaps you were downvoted because while organized religions do have influence, that doesn't imply that the purpose of organized religion is influence. An attribute of a thing is not necessarily the purpose of a thing; just because my cat has fur doesn't mean my cat's purpose is 'fur'. You may have also been downvoted because your comment seemed disrespectful or simplistic in its attitude…

"while organized religions do have influence, that doesn't imply that the purpose of organized religion is influence."

Really? I call bullshit. The ENTIRE longevity and history of religion is propped up by its ability to influence others. If I couldn't convince you that my religion was right or someone else's religion was wrong is the primary (if not entire) reason a particular religion continues to exist.

(EDIT: I'm happy to entertain reasoning to the contrary rather than your downvotes.)

Re: Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

#56

Post by buff-a » Fri, Sep 16, 2011, 1:09 PM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #43

buff-a wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is one thing that readers of HN should appreciate, it is the value of Influence. Facebook had value simply because it could put a message in front of 500 million people. Organized Religion's primary purpose is Influence. Argue that it is "for a good cause", to "save souls", if you want. That is opinion. That they have Influence is fact. That they use this Influence to induce their members to spend money is f…

I didn't downvote you -- but perhaps you were downvoted because while organized religions do have influence, that doesn't imply that the purpose of organized religion is influence. An attribute of a thing is not necessarily the purpose of a thing; just because my cat has fur doesn't mean my cat's purpose is 'fur'. You may have also been downvoted because your comment seemed disrespectful or simplistic in its attitude…

What is their purpose?

Re: Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

#57

Post by buff-a » Fri, Sep 16, 2011, 1:15 PM UTC

litmus wrote: post #44

To me it seems pretty simple: google seems to make no distinction between charitable political groups or religious organizations. they're the same damn thing in their eyes. Would church leaders consider the church a success if they eliminated poverty in the world but the entire world became atheists? Answer: No. If they were true believers they would accept it as an utter failure since all those souls would be in dan…

THIS. And in fact because of this, religions actively cause poverty and hardship.

Re: Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

#58

Post by gyardley » Fri, Sep 16, 2011, 2:16 PM UTC

mikegreenberg wrote: post #55

gyardley wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote you -- but perhaps you were downvoted because while organized religions do have influence, that doesn't imply that the purpose of organized religion is influence. An attribute of a thing is not necessarily the purpose of a thing; just because my cat has fur doesn't mean my cat's purpose is 'fur'. You may have also been downvoted because your comment seemed disrespectful or simplistic in its attitude…

"while organized religions do have influence, that doesn't imply that the purpose of organized religion is influence." Really? I call bullshit. The ENTIRE longevity and history of religion is propped up by its ability to influence others. If I couldn't convince you that my religion was right or someone else's religion was wrong is the primary (if not entire) reason a particular religion continues to exist. (EDIT: I'm…

This is simply incorrect.

My religion doesn't believe at all that your religion is wrong. Clergy in my religion will actively discourage you from converting, if they'll permit you to convert at all. We believe that it's far easier to live a righteous life when you're not a member of my religion, since there's far fewer obligations imposed upon you. No one in my religion particularly wants to convince you that my religion is right.

I don't think you understand religion all that well. You do know that they vary widely, yes?

Re: Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

#59

Post by adammichaelc » Fri, Sep 16, 2011, 2:31 PM UTC

The trend of anti-religious comments below is saddening, even more so because it seems to be the overwhelming group-think on the subject. For a group that has benefited so much from the foundations setup by religion to attack the same is short-sighted, though unfortunately not uncommon in a world where the media increasingly paints religion using only the most extreme brush and leaves most people with a taste in their mouth that religion is something foreign and even repulsive.

There are three ways I see religion as providing us with a foundation that is so obvious and common that it may almost go unnoticed.

First, much of our legal system has as its foundation a codified way to enforce what started as religious principles. Contract law came essentially to bind by law a person to "be honest," and property law to do the same with "do not steal." Much of our legal system has at its foundation these essential principles.

Second, religious groups are often the best at doing the small things that most in this audience would never see: visiting people in prison who feel helpless and without support, feeding the homeless and funding shelters and support groups for the same, and providing free counseling services to those who cannot afford those services on their own. Religious groups are often the first on the scene when a natural disaster strikes. They get boots on the ground and food in people's bellies.

Finally, religious groups subsidize education and create schools. It is likely that at some point you benefited either directly or indirectly from this educational foundation, especially in the US. By doing this, organized religions help lift millions out of ignorance.

Organized religion is not what the media portrays. That is such an important idea, that perhaps an entire essay should be written just on that sentence.

Not all (or most) religious people kill people in the name of God, or create secret compounds where they can marry teenage girls and call it "God's work," or use religion to justify hatred/torture/war,etc. These things definitely exist, but the dosing you are fed by the media/popular culture is all wrong. It's like anything else - you only get fed the things that will bring page views, and those stories tend to be about very strange wings of religions.

Most religious people very quietly live ordinary lives and use their religious faith to find deeper meaning through self-sacrifice and service to others. But that wouldn't make a good story, so you don't read much about it.

Google is popularizing an alarming trend to treat religious groups like the "crazy uncle" who won't go away when I think they should instead realize that much of their own success (via the foundations mentioned above) is a direct or indirect result of the principles that organized religion has brought them. Google is benefiting from all that has been handed to them while spitting at the giver and potentially shutting off those gifts for future generations. I think that is an unfortunate mistake.

Re: Google removes religious organizations from non-profit discount list

#60

Post by danssig » Fri, Sep 16, 2011, 2:31 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #52

danssig wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are plenty of religious organisations whose purpose is to line the leaders' pockets with money. These seems to imply that other non-profits don't. Otherwise why point out one specific group?

That "one specific group" was the "one specific group" the prior comment was picking up on from it's parent. Did you bother to read the two comments before mine to get the context of my comment, or did you just see it and attack it out of the blue?

I did read it. Missed that part though, my mistake.