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Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

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Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#781

Post by Kim_Bruning »

thegrimmest wrote: post #779
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we could quibble over details such as that people in some of the studies did quit their jobs, or whether UBI is actually a very conservative and capitalist concept, and so forth... but ... Since HN discussions tend to be short and fleeting; I think the point to focus down on would be "free time". Just because you take (some of the) money out of the picture, doesn't mean that there still isn't a lot of work to be d…

I agree with everything you wrote. I think the only question is how much work overall, as a percentage of the economy, is motivated by the avoidance of destitution, and how much is motivated by higher humanistic values. I think if you ask most people, you may be disappointed to find that they give pithy answers about not starving, or supporting their lifestyle, and vanishingly few will cite honor, duty, beauty or tra…

By way of contrast to your question, ask a kid what they want to be when they grow up. Note the cool factor in the jobs that kids want to do ("astronaut" , "fighter pilot", "fireman", "vet", "nurse" ). I'll bet very few kids say they want to stay at home and sit on the couch all day!

More in general: I think that Maslow's hierarchy of needs [1] has a quite a lot of levels between "basic physiological needs" and "transcendence". I think that as long as people need to fulfill needs anywhere on that ladder, they'll be willing to do work. If people are lucky and/or smart, a lot of their needs will be immediately fulfilled by their work; other times things may still need to be covered by money and/or free time.

I think it'd be strange if people would only have boolean motivation (either 100% staying alive, or 100% enlightenment). I think in real world people, it's often going to be some mix of motivations, with all sorts of levels in between. Sometimes more towards one side, sometimes more towards the other.

So that's my theory anyway.

Here's some examples of anecdata I have:

* An electrical technician I met at $factory. Possibly they'd work somewhere else if not for money, but on the other hand they do get a kick anytime a machine they fixed starts working again.

* An industrial programmer who got to play with $MM worth of robots and computers and lasers. They outright forgot to bill me and needed to be reminded. (oops)

* An awesome Barista who made coffee into an art form indeed; A lot of deep knowledge and skill and creativity went into it. They charged me about 2-4x what it would cost out of a machine, but it was worth it!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#782

Post by thegrimmest »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #781
thegrimmest wrote: post #779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you wrote. I think the only question is how much work overall, as a percentage of the economy, is motivated by the avoidance of destitution, and how much is motivated by higher humanistic values. I think if you ask most people, you may be disappointed to find that they give pithy answers about not starving, or supporting their lifestyle, and vanishingly few will cite honor, duty, beauty or tra…

By way of contrast to your question, ask a kid what they want to be when they grow up. Note the cool factor in the jobs that kids want to do ("astronaut" , "fighter pilot", "fireman", "vet", "nurse" ). I'll bet very few kids say they want to stay at home and sit on the couch all day! More in general: I think that Maslow's hierarchy of needs [1] has a quite a lot of levels between "basic physiological needs" and "tran…

But you've not answered my question. What portion of all work in the economy do you think is motivated by the lowest needs on the ladder, the ones that we are endeavouring to provide with a UBI? How do you think that work is distributed across industries?

> very few kids say they want to stay at home and sit on the couch all day

You will notice however that, in absence of intervention, most kids do sit on the couch all day, especially in the digital age. We also observe that this behavior continues as long as it is materially supported. Countless articles have been written about the increasing numbers of seemingly-functional adults who live under the care of their parents and don't do very much at all. UBI will enable more people to adopt this lifestyle, to become starving (read: non-productive) artists, man-children or hikikomori. Why don't you think they'll take the opportunity?

> people would only have boolean motivation

I agree that it's not a binary motivation. In aggregate however the point stands, removing x% of motivation for work will inevitably result in x% less work being done. Furthermore, any decrease in x represents wealth transfer from those who are motivated to work by higher values to those who are motivated to work by lower ones (in Maslow's hierarchy). All of this raises many moral questions, and I think these are fundamentally worth discussing.

Note: I do appreciate your continued replies =)

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#783

Post by DaltonCoffee »

JacobThreeThree wrote: post #762
DaltonCoffee wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The welfare and employment insurance system in parts of Canada (ie: those parts with little or seasonal employment) are effectively UBI.

EI is not even close to what is commonly described as UBI. Not universal at all.

Welfare and EI combined = jury rigged UBI

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#784

Post by Kim_Bruning »

thegrimmest wrote: post #758
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that chemistry or metallurgy are strict requirements for industrialization. My impression is that any form of mechanization is very helpful. For example, the Netherlands started out industrializing on wind power using wood and rope and cloth, ...actually they still use a lot of wind power today, though now with exotic composites. (At some point in between there were traditional windmills that were still…

I'm not sure I would count Dutch windmills, impressive as they are, as industrialization. People have been building windmills and watermills for a very long time. Industrialization started in Great Britain in the 1700s. Advancements in chemistry and metallurgical process had enabled the production of iron with coke, which can be mined much more cheaply than charcoal can be produced. Emerging global trade networks inc…

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/10/history-of-industria...

WRT windmills, don't take my word for it.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#785

Post by Kim_Bruning »

thegrimmest wrote: post #782
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By way of contrast to your question, ask a kid what they want to be when they grow up. Note the cool factor in the jobs that kids want to do ("astronaut" , "fighter pilot", "fireman", "vet", "nurse" ). I'll bet very few kids say they want to stay at home and sit on the couch all day! More in general: I think that Maslow's hierarchy of needs [1] has a quite a lot of levels between "basic physiological needs" and "tran…

But you've not answered my question. What portion of all work in the economy do you think is motivated by the lowest needs on the ladder, the ones that we are endeavouring to provide with a UBI? How do you think that work is distributed across industries? > very few kids say they want to stay at home and sit on the couch all day You will notice however that, in absence of intervention, most kids do sit on the couch a…

I'm still around thinking about my next answer. In the mean time, have a video about drive/what motivates us by Dan Pink for RSA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#786

Post by tekknik »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #776
tekknik wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depends on the company maybe? Were you in a project that went bad? I have never worked in robotics, save for hobby drones and hexapods. The question is not whether we would enjoy it, it’s whether someone else will. You seem very convinced that you should decide what people do for work. That’s the part I’m trying to get across to you, you should not have that power for anybody but yourself.

I notice I'm confused. I don't think that I've ever decided what people do for work. I unsure if that that is a thing. As far as I (can/do) know, they decide internally and then hire me to help. I'm not sure how to proceed. Could you unpack your assumptions for me?

Do not decide something for someone not under your care. Do not purposely invalidate someone’s job because you think you are making their job better.
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