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The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

mjpbooks.com

101–110 of 112 posts

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#101

This is extraordinary. The sample edits given at the end of the article go far beyond normal editorial changes. They completely change the meaning and content of the poem. It is a _different poem_. This comment about the editor struck me: > "Now, when I bring this subject up among a certain crowd, they bristle. They become very defensive of Martin and downright antagonistic toward me while they list the many ways in…

>> Does anyone know more about the relationship between Bukowski and Martin, and why Martin would be revered today?

John Martin was the manager of an office supply business in LA and also a rare book collector. He founded Black Sparrow Press specifically to publish Bukowski, who at the time was publishing mostly in obscure magazines or in "chapbooks", which were essentially cheaply produced pamphlets. Martin sold some of the first editions from his collection to fund the company.

He offered Bukowski $100 a month back then, something like $700 a month in today's dollars, to quit his post office job and write full time. Without that, Bukowski, who was what almost 50 years old at the time?, had the choice of either continuing to work at the post office and write on the side, or quit and write full time and face desperate poverty.

Don't get me wrong, if this is accurate about what John Martin has done with his editing, it's horrible and wrong and contrary to some of the other comments here I do not think rape is too strong of a word for it. Hopefully the original works get published at some point.

But without John Martin, most of the poem and stories that Bukowski wrote would have gone unwritten. I found out about Bukowski just randomly browsing the stacks in a university library in the 1980's and I remember the titles jumping out at me. Burning in water drowning in flame. South of no north. The days run away like wild horses over the hills. War all the time. Without John Martin, those books wouldn't have been in the stacks.

I don't know about revered. I can defend John Martin but I can't defend his editing.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#102
Wow, scrolling to the end, where he shows the edits, it's not even subtle changes. He changes "a girl asked why I write" to "a girl asked why my writing is so vulgar". It feels like the editor thought he was "juicing up" the story and giving readers what they want. He also makes the grammar INCREDIBLy proper, more proper than most editors would. It feels like he just likes editing stuff.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#103
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At issue is not whether analogies and metaphors are a type of morally equating. He literally used the word “equating”. > Notice we don't murder programs. And if someone does say that, will you swoop in to tell them that it’s inappropriate? Because I have absolutely heard people use the word “murder” metaphorically. > And in this case, survivors are already telling us how they feel. Interestingly those are all cases…

My intention is not to argue that the usage is inappropriate. Sure, it's probably obvious from my post that I think it is, but that's not the argument I was trying to make. And I'm certainly not trying to silence anyone (as the other replier pointed out one should not) because of their word choice. I didn't downvote/flag any of what I'm replying to. The argument I'm trying to make is first that it's not arbitrary to…

I have no problem with the notion that certain words should be used with care. Rape jokes are generally in very bad taste. Flippantly using the word is rather uncouth.

I also think there is balance. The fact that some claim offense or hurt at a word does not mean no one should use it.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#104
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really the deciding factor? What percentage of the population it happens to? Why?

Because if you are under no threat of being disemboweled, then you can joke about it. If you are, however, under a constant, low-level threat of being raped, then you kind of want people to take that seriously. You don't want people to make light of it. You don't want people to devalue that. And we, who are not under that threat, can and should respect that.

I am an amputee. The idea that I as an amputee should have the right to stop others from discussing or even joking about amputation seems absurd to me.

I understand the argument about being sensitive to the topic of rape. I do not think that extends so far that no one can use the word except in its literal meaning.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#105
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sit" is from Middle English sitten, from Old English sittan, from Proto-West Germanic sittjan, from Proto-Germanic sitjaną, from Proto-Indo-European *sed- (“sit”). "Lay" is from Middle English lay, from Old French lai, from Latin laicus, from Ancient Greek λαϊκός (laïkós). In English, "sit" feels immediate and active where "lay" is passive and indirect. The distinction is both important and rooted in history. It is…

Not to be pedantic, but I think 'laying' has a different etymology, namely this one (quote from the OED): 'lay, v.1 General sense: To cause to lie. [OE. lęcgan = OFris. ledsa, lega, leia, OS. leggian (Du. leggen), OHG. lecken, legen (MHG., mod.G. legen), ON. legja (Sw. lägga, Da. lægge), Goth. (= OTeut.) lagjan, f. lag- ablaut-variant of OTeut. leg-: see lie v.' OE = Old English, OFris.= Old Frisian etc.

I think GPs “lay” may be like “lay person” which is not the use in the poem.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#107
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you are under no threat of being disemboweled, then you can joke about it. If you are, however, under a constant, low-level threat of being raped, then you kind of want people to take that seriously. You don't want people to make light of it. You don't want people to devalue that. And we, who are not under that threat, can and should respect that.

I am an amputee. The idea that I as an amputee should have the right to stop others from discussing or even joking about amputation seems absurd to me. I understand the argument about being sensitive to the topic of rape. I do not think that extends so far that no one can use the word except in its literal meaning.

Are a large fraction of the population getting amputated against their will?

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#108
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an amputee. The idea that I as an amputee should have the right to stop others from discussing or even joking about amputation seems absurd to me. I understand the argument about being sensitive to the topic of rape. I do not think that extends so far that no one can use the word except in its literal meaning.

Are a large fraction of the population getting amputated against their will?

Do you suppose that people who live in war zones are forbidden from making jokes about bombs?

I get what you’re going for and have already stated elsewhere that I think rape jokes are tasteless. But your criteria doesn’t make much sense. Good for you for wanting to be sensitive to others. But if you’re going to be sensitive to others, maybe ask why your care doesn’t extend to victims in general and somehow only applies to this one word.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#109
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are a large fraction of the population getting amputated against their will?

Do you suppose that people who live in war zones are forbidden from making jokes about bombs? I get what you’re going for and have already stated elsewhere that I think rape jokes are tasteless. But your criteria doesn’t make much sense. Good for you for wanting to be sensitive to others. But if you’re going to be sensitive to others, maybe ask why your care doesn’t extend to victims in general and somehow only appli…

Nobody is talking about forbidding. The topic is being a decent human who takes others into account.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#110
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you suppose that people who live in war zones are forbidden from making jokes about bombs? I get what you’re going for and have already stated elsewhere that I think rape jokes are tasteless. But your criteria doesn’t make much sense. Good for you for wanting to be sensitive to others. But if you’re going to be sensitive to others, maybe ask why your care doesn’t extend to victims in general and somehow only appli…

Nobody is talking about forbidding . The topic is being a decent human who takes others into account.

> who takes others into account

Odd then that you seem so dismissive of the other concerns called out.

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