Live data from Hacker News

The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

mjpbooks.com

91–100 of 112 posts

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#91
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At issue is not whether analogies and metaphors are a type of morally equating. At issue is whether it is appropriate to use a particularly severe term in a decidedly less severe manner. "Kill" is used in many less severe circumstances. We kill plants and mold and bacteria. "Kill" does not nearly universally refer a specific severe act with a real human victim. Notice we don't murder programs. Regardless of historica…

> At issue is not whether analogies and metaphors are a type of morally equating. He literally used the word “equating”. > Notice we don't murder programs. And if someone does say that, will you swoop in to tell them that it’s inappropriate? Because I have absolutely heard people use the word “murder” metaphorically. > And in this case, survivors are already telling us how they feel. Interestingly those are all cases…

My intention is not to argue that the usage is inappropriate. Sure, it's probably obvious from my post that I think it is, but that's not the argument I was trying to make. And I'm certainly not trying to silence anyone (as the other replier pointed out one should not) because of their word choice. I didn't downvote/flag any of what I'm replying to.

The argument I'm trying to make is first that it's not arbitrary to question the use of this word but not "kill" or other violent words. There is a distinction because of the specificity and linguistic contexts in which the word is used.

And second that because it's not arbitrary, the complaints from survivors are also not arbitrary and should be considered--not taken as absolute unassailable truth, but considered.

For comparison, I can imagine those who lost loved ones in the infamous Air France Flight 447 might be upset to be reminded of Air France. But Air France is a 10+ billion euro company operating hundreds if not thousands of flights per day. It is stunningly rare that "Air France" is used to refer to that accident and on balance, I think most would conclude Air France is of positive or neutral impact to the world. I would be quite suspect of an argument that "Air France" is inappropriate language.

On the other extreme you have a term like "Holocaust" which effectively has no other meaning or usage than a reference to that genocide.

Now you may conclude that no usage of any word is inherently inappropriate, and if that's the case, we're simply at an impasse, and I'm fine with that. I won't try to stop you or change your mind. But for most people, I think there is a point where the triviality of the use and the severity of the word add up to inappropriateness.

It's not clear-cut. You'd probably be hard pressed to find anyone genuinely bothered by "killing" a process. But you also won't find too many people who would defend say... being kicked out of a bar for causing a drunken fight being described as being persecuted like in the Holocaust. There's a spectrum.

So my point is just this... there are some logical reasons why many people consider a usage like this article on the inappropriate side of the spectrum. We can at least acknowledge that and recognize that there's a legitimate judgment call to be made here. We aren't in "killing a process" territory. And we certainly aren't in arbitrary word policing because we happen to be bothered by it territory.

Unless of course you fundamentally disagree that any metaphor could be inappropriate because of the thing which is alluded to in the metaphor. In which case we're just starting from different fundamental assumptions, which is fine. I'm not trying to challenge anyone's values.

I'll end here. There are obviously legitimate grievances in the article regardless of the word choice in titling it, and I've done enough to derail the discussion of those already. For that, I apologize.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#92

For those who do not know Bukowski's work and wonder why a drunk post office worker gets so much attention, check out Bluebird: https://allpoetry.com/poem/8509539-Bluebird-by-Charles-Bukow...

Although I had read him, I did not have a Bukowski "phase" that many do. I was introduced to him by a man who had worked for the United States Postal Service, which he frequently derided. He said to me, "If you want to find someone who hates the Postal Service more than I do, check this out ..."

Well, I did, and read other things, and eventually began to recognize his contribution to culture, which is kind of a last step before my awareness of a particular author might fade, the way "The Copulating Mermaid of Venice, California" turns up in the concept for the Tom Petty video for "Mary Jane's Last Dance," and so on; I recognize, nod, and forget. I hadn't thought about him in years until I stumbled across "The Laughing Heart" as I was in a late night fit of hating my job. A part went "... be on the watch. the gods will offer you chances," which struck me as a kind of admonition. It was one I took to heart, because a "chance" happened not long after and I, in a rare fit of boldness, took it.

Some of his short stories stood out, the fantastical ones, and of course the poetry. The poetry here is just ... well, one can imagine the early transporters in the Trek universe not working particularly well. Something emerges at the other end, it has a similar shape to it but doesn't quite fit together well enough, and you're left with something you hope will die on its own before it realizes what has happened to it. The "vulgar poem" sample is like that, some kind of tortured Bukowski clone flopped out of a steaming vat, bleated an unnatural sound, and then you don't know if you're crushing its head out of mercy or disgust, but you'd rather not have that happen again.

And the article provides a handy index of avoiding such abominations, to boot!

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#93
post #52

I'm not a Bukowski fan in particular, but I have worked as an editor, and I can't imagine any writer I've worked with accepting that kind of heavy-handed rewriting of their works. For myself, I never tried to rewrite an author's work, generally the idea is to try to get the writer to do the work and follow your feedback willingly. When the writer is deceased you have fewer options, but I think you pretty much have to…

Is it common for editors to add to a writer's text? My naive assumption was that they often cut and re-structure and maybe suggest re-wording, but I'm surprised to see an editor actively add content that wasn't there at all

[deleted]

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#95
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also came here to complain about this use of the word "rape". If you titled this article "The Tragic Rape of Charles Bukowski's Poetry", then it would be used solely as the original meaning. The current title is specifically designed to invoke the idea of a sexual assault - what if the title used the word "Corpse" instead of "Ghost"?

It definitely could. Depends on the meaning of “ghost”. In context of the article, I took ghost to mean “legacy”, rather than the person. English is frustratingly imprecise.

The imprecision is a very human and cultural aspect of language where much poetry sneaks in, though.

If we all spoke Lojban, I'm sure the poetry would be very precise, but I wonder if it could convey the same things.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#96
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At issue is not whether analogies and metaphors are a type of morally equating. At issue is whether it is appropriate to use a particularly severe term in a decidedly less severe manner. "Kill" is used in many less severe circumstances. We kill plants and mold and bacteria. "Kill" does not nearly universally refer a specific severe act with a real human victim. Notice we don't murder programs. Regardless of historica…

> At issue is not whether analogies and metaphors are a type of morally equating. He literally used the word “equating”. > Notice we don't murder programs. And if someone does say that, will you swoop in to tell them that it’s inappropriate? Because I have absolutely heard people use the word “murder” metaphorically. > And in this case, survivors are already telling us how they feel. Interestingly those are all cases…

I often use 4 letter shortcut aliases. Inspired by this, "mrdr" is now a new alias of "kill -9".

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#97
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those do not happen to a sizeable fraction of the population. Rape does.

Is that really the deciding factor? What percentage of the population it happens to? Why?

Because if you are under no threat of being disemboweled, then you can joke about it.

If you are, however, under a constant, low-level threat of being raped, then you kind of want people to take that seriously. You don't want people to make light of it. You don't want people to devalue that.

And we, who are not under that threat, can and should respect that.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#98
post #64
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are also over the top, but comparing text editing to violent sexual domination is well past the American taste for absurd overstatement, and just comes across like a silly, blinkered person overly absorbed in their little drama. It works against the author's apparent interest. They throw the dials to 11 as a bit of norm-setting editorializing about supposed severity of the unjust edits, but it just ends up bein…

I disagree. It's very fitting within the context of Bukowski's work.

If anyone doubts this, find the phrase "like a sickle" in Bukowski's work and you'll see it's in the right general area.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#99

For those who do not know Bukowski's work and wonder why a drunk post office worker gets so much attention, check out Bluebird: https://allpoetry.com/poem/8509539-Bluebird-by-Charles-Bukow...

Read by Tom O'Bedlam at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVdpfhsj6uI. Along with many other Bukowski poems.

Another comment mentioned The Laughing Heart, it's at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQNmu1Q9NzA.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#100
post #73

Bukowski dead drunk on French TV in 1978: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C99h2r8txh4 At the time there were only 3 channels, and that show was very popular, so it's a famous moment. What I find surprising is how elegant he is, even in that situation.

I don’t know if elegant is the right word. He just seemed like a drunk man who had been in that situation a few times before.
Post reply on HN