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Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

jasonstanford.substack.com

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Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#321

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

l8rpeace wrote: post #259
rvba wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supposedly he should know the ins and outs of labor law, yet he struggles to provide any applicable analysis how to solve the problems. Obviously low pay is the biggest one, but things like lack of breaks to go to the toilet is something very solevable.

Yes! And how policy can have unintended consequence is HUGE. Why doesn't he really even mention that? It's upsetting that among the many observations that "people, tip more" ends up being the final thought and not "we created a system that affords all of this behavior, " not one that works with known conditions. Sure, I personally think people should be more generous, but they aren't obliged to be generous, I don't r…

> Sure, I personally think people should be more generous

I think people shouldn't be expected to show generosity with an arbitrary subsidy.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#322

Post by inetknght »

mcv wrote: post #264
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

The tipping situation is absolutely stupid, but hardly the only problem. And shitty entitled customers contribute to both issues here: they treat employees poorly, and they tip poorly. Businesses should probably just kick those customers out. If you can't behave like a decent person, the business shouldn't have to accept you as a customer. Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself. If these service jobs a…

> Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself.

We're at where we are because of market forces. I doubt the market will "correct itself" when the market doesn't see anything wrong.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#323

Post by readthenotes1 »

spaetzleesser wrote: post #281
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

“I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people.” I think that’s a natural consequence of a society that measures everything by money.

I think it's the natural consequence of several generations of telling kids their special and not curbing a child's natural self-centeredness.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#324

Post by dboreham »

gravypod wrote: post #267
glup wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides the author’s v points about the poor working conditions, I was struck by the points about transit costs. I am curious how much of the current labor situation in the US can be explained by the combination of 1) geographic wealth segregation —- richer consumers clustering together while generally poorer service workers have to live far away —- and 2) high gas prices / underdeveloped public transit. At some poin…

It's not even just lower class workers. Taking public transit to my FAANG job each day would be ~$20 total and be ~2hrs of commuting each day. That comes out to ~5k/year in commuting costs and about 65 workdays in hours wasted on trains and subways. I can eat this cost but I'd feel extremely bad for someone who doesn't get paid as much as I do who had to do this kind of commuting (which MANY people do daily).

> ~5k/year in commuting costs and about 65 workdays in hours wasted on trains and subways

Welcome to London.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#325

Post by ianai »

MattGaiser wrote: post #228
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

> I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. Is it growing, or is it just unpleasant/impolite to state that a large segment of the population consists of jerks so we keep forgetting?

I think it's social media. I quit social media years ago. I've also noticed people becoming just increasingly hostile for "no apparent to me reason".

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#326

Post by bnralt »

bluGill wrote: post #178
cardosof wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and in that regard I've always found EU countries much more humane, in the sense they don't have to take shit from a bad customer and smile because of the weight of the tip in their salary.

Yeah, instead the customer has to take it from bad servers with nothing they can do about it.

Personally, I've found service better in non-tipping countries than in tipping countries. My guess is it's because in most non-tipping countries, waiters spend less time trying to pretend to be friends with customers at every table and more time just doing their job. Having to wait for service because a waiter is spending a lot of time buttering up another table with inane chit-chat is annoying, especially when I have to pay extra for it.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#327

Post by eminence32 »

l8rpeace wrote: post #280
eminence32 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title of the article ("He thought tending bar sounded like fun. Then the entire kitchen staff quit on Christmas Eve"), the NH submission title ("Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now") and your comment ("...joins the workforce and learns the real truth") make it sounds like the author experienced some deep revelation about the state of this kind of work. I think the titles are a bit hyperbolic (to ba…

Agree that the titles may distort the perception (you make an excellent point), but I was concerned about the conclusion of the article. Thank you for bringing that to light. I also respect your reading of the article as a generalization of this predicament. This is also very helpful to reframe the article. But personally, I'm not so sure of that entirely. And that's because he's outlining tip practices, a voluntary…

I think you are saying that the conclusions you quoted are not really satisfying nor satisfactory. I agree with you on this. I personally think the end of the article was a bit "lazy" rhetorically, but maybe that's OK. Thanks for your comments on this, they helped my own understanding.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#328

Post by db65edfc7996 »

bluGill wrote: post #153
pitaj wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll find that servers and bartenders are the most adimant supporters of tipping. They make a killing.

The good ones love the tip system. They get the most tips, and also tend to be the types of people recruited to the higher prices restaurants where higher tips are normal. They draw in repeat customers for their great service. I used to know a waitress who was making just as much as her engineer husband. She looked good for 55, but 55 will never look good enough to draw in many high tips based on looks. (good lucks i…

I am most curious what percentage of the population dynamically adjusts their tip in any relation to the service. It has just become an additional tax. I give a standard 20%, more if it rounds to a nice whole dollar amount.

Even if I had bad service, I am still giving 20%. That's the social contract I am stuck with fulfilling.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#329

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

daveevad wrote: post #320
oramit wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed growing incivility as well and it's a slow moving culture change that I think we're all going to really regret. I don't think it's caused by just one thing and it has been brewing for a while but Covid just pushed it over the edge like so many other trends. Some ideas on the causes: - The fish rots from the head. Trump was elected in 2016 and he's an asshole. His whole schtick is to mock his opponents an…

> The fish rots from the head. Trump was elected in 2016 and he's an asshole. His whole schtick is to mock his opponents and never admit he was wrong. Obama roasting Trump at the White House Correspondents likely contributed to his decision to run for President. I agree your points by the way, I just think the fire started prior to 2016.

There's this idea of "punching down" and "punching up". I'm fairly sure that in 2012, Obama mocking Donald Trump was generally considered closer to "punching up" than "punching down" (whether that was really accurate depends a lot on the true state of Trump's financial affairs, but in general he projected a persona that involved being uber-wealthy, uber-famous and generally able to do whatever he wanted).

By contrast, Trump's mocking of, variously, Mexican and central American migrants, the disabled, media reporters etc. is generally seen as "punching down".

In our culture, those further up the ladder are generally expected to take a "punching" (i.e. mockery, jokes, satires, ridicule) from below in good stead. We generally expect them to not "punch down" at those less enabled by power and wealth.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#330

Post by ianai »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #284
MattGaiser wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. Is it growing, or is it just unpleasant/impolite to state that a large segment of the population consists of jerks so we keep forgetting?

I wonder, we only tend to remember that one asshole today not the other 50 people who were normal.

The a-holes are becoming the rule and not the exception. Just my experience, though.
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