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Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

jasonstanford.substack.com

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Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#161

Post by l8rpeace »

mynameishere wrote: post #152
l8rpeace wrote: post #100

Former politician who focused on labor joins the workforce and learns the real truth THEN chastises customers for not tipping in the conclusion of his article? Yes, he talks about the tough conditions of the job and customer behavior and other things, but nothing about how MAYBE legislation should change for wages (hourly service workers relying on tips in the US actually make well below the hourly minimum wage). Sor…

I think he's actually going through the exercise of confirming his prior beliefs with "experience".

Too true! Yes he's now in the workforce, and it's such a shame that he NOW sees how the system works AFTER dictating/enforcing policy about it for an entire state.

And there's an implication at the end of the article: tip more, customers. Policy is fine, it didn't cause this problem, customer behavior did.

Perhaps he needs more confirmation through that experience.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#162

Post by orwin »

ajmurmann wrote: post #151
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

I think this Reddit comment from a use called TheMagecite on parenting during the pandemic might get to some of it: "No. So lets take my example I have two children one has autism. What my son desperately needs is social interaction, how do you teach social interaction well without peers? He can't see other children and right now he has such limited exposure to other children he is about to start school and it is a n…

For context, which country do you live in?

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#163

Post by davemp »

brimble wrote: post #45
gbrindisi wrote: post #8

I am always baffled when I read about the tip culture in the states. I find it so belittling for workers. It seems to incentivize a mentality of "the customer is always right", with workers putting an extra effort to always smile and be nice in the hope for a fair tip.

> I am always baffled when I read about the tip culture in the states. I find it so belittling for workers. It seems to incentivize a mentality of "the customer is always right", with workers putting an extra effort to always smile and be nice in the hope for a fair tip. There was an early-20th-century movement in the US to end tipping, for that reason. The thinking was that it created too much of a relationship of s…

> The thinking was that it created too much of a relationship of subservience rather than equals participating in commerce, to be compatible with American ideals of freedom.

That's my feelings about tipping. The custom feels very classist. Depending on tips creates a social divide between service industries and their customers.

I used to work for tips when I was growing up (~2010). My rate was about $15-20/hr which you just couldn't get as young teenager any other way. BUT, I had to force myself to be bubbly and make small talk or I'd make closer to $5-10/hr. The core service quality never changed--only how much I pleased/entertained my customers. I felt like the court fool or a beggar pleading for alms, so I eventually quit for a $10/hr job that I felt much better working throughout the rest of high school.

The tipping experience did teach me the value of being personable, but I don't think the incentives need to be so severe.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#164

Post by bluGill »

toyg wrote: post #73
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making a killing is pushing it unless you're working at a high end place. I really wonder how many HN people have ever worked in a waitstaff role. As much as you might hate it, tips keeps you just above minimum wage 95% of the time. Its not some money fountain like some people here seem to thing it is. People who want tips of course want it because it gives them money on top of minimum wage, why the hell would you ex…

The most professionalised elements are the ones who end up in high-end places, because they made a real career of it. Because of that, it's likely that they are also the ones most represented by unions and associations that might be consulted by policymakers. So when a policymaker puts forward an idea to improve their condition, and gets back an icy or ambivalent response (as well as a very negative one from employer…

I'd be surprised if that was true. Unions are good when there is an "we are all in it together", but with tipping a great server can make a lot more than a bad one, so all the great servers will defect from the union for more money. The bad ones want a union, but they are also the ones management should get rid of.

There are ways for unions to work around this, but the fact that some members see themselves as better than others in ways that are measurable make such unions weaker.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#165

Post by bluGill »

interestica wrote: post #49
h2odragon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its weird who is "supposed" to get tips, too. Someone who brings you a plate is supposed to get 15% of the bill for doing their job; but an auto parts store clerk who chases down something weird for you over 2hrs of searching may well be forbidden to accept any gratuity, and possibly even disciplined for spending too much time on a small sale.

And the idea that the gratuity should be a percentage of the selling price of the goods is also weird. Someone makes more money if they did the same work but handed you more expensive food.

As a water drinker I always pad a few bucks onto my bill. Water is free on the bill, but I want the server to think water drinkers are worth a bit more in tips so bring them their refills.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#166

Post by dls2016 »

kickout wrote: post #119
dls2016 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Welcome to the terrible world of tipping. While I agree, I remember bartenders making $10/hr + tips when I worked in a restaurant... in 1998. I could make $10/hr washing dishes (always the most hard-to-staff position) but wouldn't do so until after the restaurant died down because I made more busing tables with tips. Let's just call this type of employment what it is: wage slavery. People are used to there being a…

No way anyone outside of LA/SF/NYC were paying dishwashers 10+. I made 5.25 (i think) around that time period (98-00) washing dishes. It sucked ass

Central PA, it was a busy restaurant next to Hershey Park. I believe dishwashers started at $7.50 or $8... but on a busy Saturday night the managers would have to go around begging someone wash dishes. I doubt they would've let me work full time at that rate, but they let me clock in/out to my advantage when they needed it.

Hosts/busers started around $5.25 or so... I think I eventually worked it up to $7.50 or so, but with tips it was much more. My point is that even then it wasn't worth it to me to work for $10/hr.

If I had to guess, the wages probably aren't much more now than they were then.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#167

Post by bena »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #89
gbrindisi wrote: post #8

I am always baffled when I read about the tip culture in the states. I find it so belittling for workers. It seems to incentivize a mentality of "the customer is always right", with workers putting an extra effort to always smile and be nice in the hope for a fair tip.

Tipping is a contentious topic. Perhaps counterintuitively, wait staff generally prefers a tipping model over fixed pay when given the choice. Tipping is more variable, but it can pay surprisingly well, especially for staff who are good at their job. It’s rare to find a no-tip restaurant that can match the earning potential of what a good server can make with tipping. It’s theoretically possible, of course, but in pr…

Servers like it because they can abuse information asymmetry to get more money.

If I sit down at a restaurant, I don't know if the server has had a good week, a bad week, an average week, or what. So, not knowing that, if I'm sympathetic to their position, I'm inclined to tip well. Add on to that the constant pressure of tips upward. It's gone from being 10% on average to 20% on average in my lifetime. And also flat rates on certain services.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#168

Post by bluGill »

davemp wrote: post #163
brimble wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am always baffled when I read about the tip culture in the states. I find it so belittling for workers. It seems to incentivize a mentality of "the customer is always right", with workers putting an extra effort to always smile and be nice in the hope for a fair tip. There was an early-20th-century movement in the US to end tipping, for that reason. The thinking was that it created too much of a relationship of s…

> The thinking was that it created too much of a relationship of subservience rather than equals participating in commerce, to be compatible with American ideals of freedom. That's my feelings about tipping. The custom feels very classist. Depending on tips creates a social divide between service industries and their customers. I used to work for tips when I was growing up (~2010). My rate was about $15-20/hr which y…

You have just talked me into tips. I want a server who will entertain me while I'm waiting. There is a line of course, don't do too much, but a bit of make me feel better about it is worth paying extra for. Service with a good bubbly personality is well worth the extra cost in my opinion.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#169

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

kritiko wrote: post #41
lotsofpulp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in CA/OR/WA/NYC/DC. Also, the federal minimum wage is not lower than anyone else’s, assuming they want to report their employer for not following the law.

The United States of America federal government requires a wage of at least $2.13 per hour be paid to employees who receive at least $30 per month in tips.

And if the tips plus tipped minimum wage doesn’t reach normal minimum wage, the employer is required to top it up to at least the untipped minimum wage. I believe that’s what parent comment was referring to.

As well as the fact that many states, representing a massive chunk of the US population, don’t have a separate special tipped minimum wage.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#170

Post by hotpotamus »

ajmurmann wrote: post #159
DarylZero wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I naively thought the whole point of the market was to effectively route resources to where they are most in demand and allow innovation from the ground up where it's needed without central planning

I don't think markets have a point; they just are. The systems and regulations we create around markets are what give them meaning.
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