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The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

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Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#41

Post by uberdru »

dahak27 wrote: post #31

People are rightfully pointing out how ridiculous some of the overt substantive changes in that end poem are, but I was pretty amazed by how even the quite minor changes totally alter the feel of the thing too. "Sit on a couch and look at a wall" to "Laying on the couch and looking at the wall" loses a lot somehow in a hard-to-pin-down way. It's almost an impressively efficient butchering

"Laying on the couch" is loaded with the kind of psychoanalytical implications that Bukowski hated. Which is a major reason why this feels so wrong. He would lie on the floor and listen to the radio.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#42

Post by clsec »

vintagedave wrote: post #4

This is extraordinary. The sample edits given at the end of the article go far beyond normal editorial changes. They completely change the meaning and content of the poem. It is a _different poem_. This comment about the editor struck me: > "Now, when I bring this subject up among a certain crowd, they bristle. They become very defensive of Martin and downright antagonistic toward me while they list the many ways in…

>Does anyone know more about the relationship between Bukowski and Martin,

IMO his deal with Martin made it so Bukowski was able to write full time in the later years of his life. Otherwise he may have had to still work at the Post Office and only be able to write part time.

>and why Martin would be revered today? Why he would have supporters? Why he would even need supporters?

He's revered because he (Black Sparrow Press) published many works by authors who would have otherwise never gotten a publishing deal. His supporters are most likely fans of the authors he published and those from the San Francisco Beat Generation. He, and Black Sparrow Press, had/have a close relationship with City Lights Books and Lawrence Ferlinghetti.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#43

Post by djmips »

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #26
g5095 wrote: post #8

I'm hardly a SJW but it's 2022, can we stop equating rape which is a shockingly violent violation/assult of a real a human being with anything less. I'm sure I'm gonna get slammed for this but whatever.

You don't get it, do you? This asswipe, Martin. He fucked up Bukowski's poems. With his mincing, middle-class stink. Oh, it's not a dirty poem anymore, it's a vulgar one. By the time he's done, it sounds like Bukowski went to Vassar. Now you? You're going to mince around like this too? But Michael Phillips -- he respects Bukowski. He knows how to write. He uses the right goddamn word in the right goddamn place. Like:…

Give me a break. Can't he have an opinion? I guess you're raping the OP.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#44

Post by clsec »

uberdru wrote: post #41
dahak27 wrote: post #31

People are rightfully pointing out how ridiculous some of the overt substantive changes in that end poem are, but I was pretty amazed by how even the quite minor changes totally alter the feel of the thing too. "Sit on a couch and look at a wall" to "Laying on the couch and looking at the wall" loses a lot somehow in a hard-to-pin-down way. It's almost an impressively efficient butchering

"Laying on the couch" is loaded with the kind of psychoanalytical implications that Bukowski hated. Which is a major reason why this feels so wrong. He would lie on the floor and listen to the radio.

I've read a lot of his works and I could _never_ imagine Bukowski "laying on the couch and looking at the wall."

Fortunately I have read only a few of his posthumous works.

edit: changed very little to few

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#45

Post by g5095 »

elefantastisch wrote: post #33
coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 2022, can't we stop conflating analogies and metaphors with "morally equating"? When we "kill" a program there's no life murdered or equivalent moral issue involved either. But I don't take issue with the wording just because I've had a relative killed in a bad situation. And I don't think anybody should (or if they do, they should get over it).

At issue is not whether analogies and metaphors are a type of morally equating. At issue is whether it is appropriate to use a particularly severe term in a decidedly less severe manner. "Kill" is used in many less severe circumstances. We kill plants and mold and bacteria. "Kill" does not nearly universally refer a specific severe act with a real human victim. Notice we don't murder programs. Regardless of historica…

No post body was provided.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#46

Post by swayvil »

dahak27 wrote: post #31

People are rightfully pointing out how ridiculous some of the overt substantive changes in that end poem are, but I was pretty amazed by how even the quite minor changes totally alter the feel of the thing too. "Sit on a couch and look at a wall" to "Laying on the couch and looking at the wall" loses a lot somehow in a hard-to-pin-down way. It's almost an impressively efficient butchering

>impressively efficient butchering

He removes the testicles while leaving the valuable meat and fat entirely unblemished.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#47

Post by dhosek »

One of the most interesting things to do in terms of looking at editorial changes is to read side-by-side What We Talk About When We Talk About Love and Beginners by Raymond Carver. The latter is the unedited version of his collected stories. It's really fascinating to see how Gordon Lish really formed what people think of as Carver's style, although there are some really odd changes like the number of a hotel room was changed from Carver's original to Lish's version. In this case, though, I personally believe that Lish's editorial changes definitely improved Carver's work and while Carver originally disagreed, you can see the lasting impact on his style in his later works.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#48

Post by user-the-name »

mixedCase wrote: post #12
g5095 wrote: post #8

I'm hardly a SJW but it's 2022, can we stop equating rape which is a shockingly violent violation/assult of a real a human being with anything less. I'm sure I'm gonna get slammed for this but whatever.

I got the impression that was the point, to exaggerate. But I can't help but wonder, would you had felt the same way had the author chosen other shockingly violent acts such as "disembowelment", "lobotomy", "castration", or "amputation"?

Those do not happen to a sizeable fraction of the population. Rape does.

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#49

Post by eezurr »

elefantastisch wrote: post #33
coldtea wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 2022, can't we stop conflating analogies and metaphors with "morally equating"? When we "kill" a program there's no life murdered or equivalent moral issue involved either. But I don't take issue with the wording just because I've had a relative killed in a bad situation. And I don't think anybody should (or if they do, they should get over it).

At issue is not whether analogies and metaphors are a type of morally equating. At issue is whether it is appropriate to use a particularly severe term in a decidedly less severe manner. "Kill" is used in many less severe circumstances. We kill plants and mold and bacteria. "Kill" does not nearly universally refer a specific severe act with a real human victim. Notice we don't murder programs. Regardless of historica…

Personally I think people should be free to say what they want to. And people are free to react the way they want to too. But neither side should have the power to silence the other.

Also since this submission hasnt been downvoted into oblivion, your personal, anecdotal reaction is not the norm (on HN)

Re: The tragic rape of Charles Bukowski’s ghost by Black Sparrow Press (2013)

#50

Post by Finnucane »

I'm not a Bukowski fan in particular, but I have worked as an editor, and I can't imagine any writer I've worked with accepting that kind of heavy-handed rewriting of their works. For myself, I never tried to rewrite an author's work, generally the idea is to try to get the writer to do the work and follow your feedback willingly. When the writer is deceased you have fewer options, but I think you pretty much have to accept it as is, and say, this is what we have.
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