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The mystery of social behavior in octopuses

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Re: The mystery of social behavior in octopuses

#41

Post by hutzlibu »

asxd wrote: post #12
V-2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs have lived alongside humans for millennia. They're genetically engineered animals (in the oldschool way - by breeding and selection, not in a test tube). And we've bred them largely by rewarding their ability to interact with us. Dogs are obviously quite artificial species in that sense

That's a good point. They've definitely been bred for their ability to communicate with us. I know it's a bit tangential, but I do like the fact we have a kind of sister species in that way. I sometimes wonder what it would be like if our ancestors had instead domesticated another animal to that extent (besides the cat, I suppose). In an alternate universe, maybe we'd have smallish bears as trusted companions :-)

"In an alternate universe, maybe we'd have smallish bears as trusted companions :-)"

Some people have even in this universe, but not so many, because they are not easy to handle. And back then having pets, was not so much a hobby - but the dogs were useful for survival. (guarding and hunting)

Re: The mystery of social behavior in octopuses

#42

Post by austinjp »

dang wrote: post #34
uninstantiated wrote: post #21

When humans are social with humans, are they reaching out or simply reacting?

I changed the title from "Can We Really Be Friends with an Octopus?" to "When octopuses are social with humans, are they reaching out or simply reacting?" (the subtitle, more or less) in the hope of avoiding shallow comments like this. (A comment reacting purely to information, or lack of information, in a title is pretty much shallow by definition.) Since that didn't work, I guess it's time to look for some more rep…

I agree with sibling comment; parent comment may be terse, but I didn't find it shallow.

Re: The mystery of social behavior in octopuses

#43

Post by dang »

wombatmobile wrote: post #40
dang wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I changed the title from "Can We Really Be Friends with an Octopus?" to "When octopuses are social with humans, are they reaching out or simply reacting?" (the subtitle, more or less) in the hope of avoiding shallow comments like this. (A comment reacting purely to information, or lack of information, in a title is pretty much shallow by definition.) Since that didn't work, I guess it's time to look for some more rep…

… in the hope of avoiding shallow comments like this. Shallow? It’s profound. Have you tried to respond to the question, in the human context?

A shallow comment can contain a profound question. "What is the meaning of life?" would be an even shallower comment.

Were a comment to contain new and interesting information about a profound, i.e. generic, question, that would be fine. But this is precisely what internet comments bringing up generic questions don't usually do. It's not a good fit for the genre. Someone who really has something original to say about a profound question would be better off writing an essay, or a book. Certainly not a one-liner to an internet forum.

This is so much the case, in fact, that changing the subject from a concrete topic to a more generic one is a frequent form of trolling.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: The mystery of social behavior in octopuses

#44

Post by troyvit »

gattr wrote: post #39

There is a subplot about intelligence-enhanced cephalopods in Stephen Baxter's SF novel "Manifold: Time".

Gonna check it out! I'm almost done with the Children of Time series, the second book of which also features intelligence-enhanced cephalopods.

Re: The mystery of social behavior in octopuses

#45

Post by asxd »

hutzlibu wrote: post #41
asxd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point. They've definitely been bred for their ability to communicate with us. I know it's a bit tangential, but I do like the fact we have a kind of sister species in that way. I sometimes wonder what it would be like if our ancestors had instead domesticated another animal to that extent (besides the cat, I suppose). In an alternate universe, maybe we'd have smallish bears as trusted companions :-)

"In an alternate universe, maybe we'd have smallish bears as trusted companions :-)" Some people have even in this universe, but not so many, because they are not easy to handle. And back then having pets, was not so much a hobby - but the dogs were useful for survival. (guarding and hunting)

I would imagine wolves weren't to easy domesticate either

Re: The mystery of social behavior in octopuses

#46

Post by asxd »

technothrasher wrote: post #16
V-2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs have lived alongside humans for millennia. They're genetically engineered animals (in the oldschool way - by breeding and selection, not in a test tube). And we've bred them largely by rewarding their ability to interact with us. Dogs are obviously quite artificial species in that sense

Having grown up with a lot of domesticated animals, it's amazing how much dogs can communicate on our terms, compared to, say, a horse. Horses can communicate quite a bit, but you typically have to understand horses and meet them where they're at before you can effectivity communicate with them. Dogs do a much better job of trying different ways to get their point across to you until you get it.

> to get their point across

I love this phrasing, as I think it sums up the difference between dogs and other animals with regards to human communication. It's possible to communicate with other animals if you put in the effort, but dogs on the other hand are often willing to put in the effort to communicate with you!

Re: The mystery of social behavior in octopuses

#48

Post by hutzlibu »

asxd wrote: post #45
hutzlibu wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In an alternate universe, maybe we'd have smallish bears as trusted companions :-)" Some people have even in this universe, but not so many, because they are not easy to handle. And back then having pets, was not so much a hobby - but the dogs were useful for survival. (guarding and hunting)

I would imagine wolves weren't to easy domesticate either

Not easy, but much more easy, because wolves are pack animals who accept a leader, which can be a human.

Bears not so much and therefore much harder to control. Same with cats, which is why they have been kept around to hunt the mice and rats - but only small cats.

Also I believe the first dogs did not came from wolves, but other wild dog breeds.

Re: The mystery of social behavior in octopuses

#49

Post by wombatmobile »

dang wrote: post #43
wombatmobile wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

… in the hope of avoiding shallow comments like this. Shallow? It’s profound. Have you tried to respond to the question, in the human context?

A shallow comment can contain a profound question. "What is the meaning of life?" would be an even shallower comment. Were a comment to contain new and interesting information about a profound, i.e. generic, question, that would be fine. But this is precisely what internet comments bringing up generic questions don't usually do. It's not a good fit for the genre. Someone who really has something original to say about…

In this case, the question is informative and stimulating because it challenges the assumption that human interaction has a different dynamic to animal interaction.

Bringing this question to conscious awareness is a different category of social discourse to “What is the meaning of life”, which is not really a social question at all.

Re: The mystery of social behavior in octopuses

#50

Post by shard »

datameta wrote: post #6
james-redwood wrote: post #2

Octopi are remarkably intelligent creatures, as any good aquarium owner will tell you.

An even better aquarium owner wouldn't have them at all. My Octopus Teacher is a fantastic look into the life of an octopus, their intellectual capacity, and their propensity to interact with humans.

Here is a critique of My Octopus Teacher as a movie of a self-centered man who projects his issues onto an unsuspecting wild animal: "MY OCTOPUS TEACHER & Environmental Horror, An Analysis" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44
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