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Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

bmj.com

41–50 of 257 posts

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#41
post #40

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> Do you disagree with anything in the article? Absolutely, yes. I believe there to be an acute public health interest in not letting antivax nuts run wild on raw data like they do with VAERS, despite clear disclaimers not to do so. Additionally, as a participant in a couple of trials, I see a significant benefit to careful review before the release of data that might inadvertently reveal my identity, conditions, med…

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I believe patients have a right to privacy that deserves careful protection.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#42
post #27

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> Cool. What if it's misleading? That question applies in literally every case and therefore doesn't change change the optimal strategy. > What if it requires some domain expertise to detect a reasonable-sounding, but actually false claim? That question applies just as much to links from "sciencebasedmedicine.org" as it does to the OP.

> That question applies just as much to links from "sciencebasedmedicine.org" as it does to the OP.

Sure, which is why being aware of both is valuable.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#44

At this point the original phase 3 trials are pretty much irrelevant, we have so much more data now from the actual use of the vaccines. They really play no role at all now. In terms of effectivness we're three major SARS-CoV2 variants further, and for looking at rare side effects we have billions of doses now compared to tens of thousands in those trials. I'm all for putting pressure on everyone in Science to publis…

It's hard to analyse the data from treatments, as treatments don't have a control group. Trials are designed with control groups, placebos and double-blind process to gather data and then analyse it. We may have loads of data from real people being treated, but good luck trying to analyse it in a scientific way. We need effective vaccines, and we need to be able to trust them. Just treating people with a vaccine does…

It's much, much harder to understand the data if you don't have a control group. But once you have an effective treatment, you no longer have a control group if you're at all ethical. You cannot keep a working treatment from people just to do more science, that is deeply and fundamentally unethical.

So the moment we knew the vaccines worked, the science got harder. Well, that point also save an enormous amount of lives, so I don't think this is something to complain about. It's still possible to do a lot of good science now, even randomized controlled trials. They just can't compare to unvaccinated groups, but you can still do stuff like compare double-vaccinated with triple vaccinated.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#45
post #17

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I'm so sick of comments like this. I'll read the goddamn information presented to me and use my own critical thinking skills to determine what I see as useful. Whatever past the person has, if there is a potential issue with something, it's someone like this who has been paying attention with a focus on the matter who will alert us first.

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The chairman of Thompson Reuters, who professionally fact check information for Facebook, is on the board of Pfizer which is a grave conflict of interest and there's been repeated examples of them lying outright so all bets are off on who you may suggest is being misleading.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#46

Who's responsible when it turns out that the anonymization of highly confidential patient data in the raw data is flawed, as it inevitably is?

As long as they follow the official HHS guidance on de-identification then it should be fine.

https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/special-...

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#47

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I can only recommend this article about bmj: https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021/11/15/wtf-happened-to-t...

Yup. I'm not sure how many non anti vax people who comment in support of BMJ actually read the original article. If you are them please reveal yourself and explain how you found nothing wrong with the original article. Most of these comments in the threads just seem like tired knee jerk anti big media / anti vax memes.

I'm a pro vax person, and I've had three vaccine doses. But I have a few anti-vaxers around in friends and family, and it can be hard to argue with them that vaccines are totally safe and effective for them (not talking about the population as a whole).

I would like safe and effective vaccines, and I would like to know that the vaccines I have been administered have really got the backing of truly scientific trials.

Surely releasing the trial data is a net positive for all the national populations that have paid for it.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#48

At this point the original phase 3 trials are pretty much irrelevant, we have so much more data now from the actual use of the vaccines. They really play no role at all now. In terms of effectivness we're three major SARS-CoV2 variants further, and for looking at rare side effects we have billions of doses now compared to tens of thousands in those trials. I'm all for putting pressure on everyone in Science to publis…

> This kind of data is likely more complicated because it's really hard if not impossible to anonymize the actual patient-level data. It still should be as accessible to other scientists as possible.

I disagree with both parts of this. Why not associate each patient with a number then log all data against that? Patient names and other identifying information should simply never be attached to trial-related data (except for in a well-protected lookup file with highly restricted access).

Making scientific data accessible only to other scientists is highly anti-scientific. Feynman, one of the greatest scientists of all time has many quotes around exactly this mindset:

"Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look at what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, 'Is it reasonable?' ... we will doom humanity for a long time to the chains of authority, confined to the limits of our present imagination. It has been done so many times before."

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts"

"Our freedom to doubt was born out of a struggle against authority in the early days of science. It was a very deep and strong struggle: permit us to question - to doubt - to not be sure. I think that it is important that we do not forget this struggle and thus perhaps lose what we have gained."

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#49
post #30

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Please don't cross into snark and attack like that. It adds poison to the ecosystem and weakens your argument. More explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30016018.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Serious question: if the raw data could potentially undermine public trust in the US government, can it be classified as a matter of national security? No, probably not. The government doesn't really have the authority to classify information generated by private entities like Pfizer barring specific legislation. The closest you'd likely come is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act , but that allows…

> The government doesn't really have the authority to classify information generated by private entities like Pfizer barring specific legislation. They can classify patents at will.

Yes, and I cited the very specific legislation allowing that.
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