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Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

bmj.com

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Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#21

Post by choward »

ceejayoz wrote: post #4

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-heck-happened-to-t... has some stuff to say about the author (about 2/3 the way down), including signing a petition doubting that HIV causes AIDS. > Indeed, Doshi has history of playing footsie with the antivaccine movement, amplifying antivaccine conspiracy theories, downplaying the severity of influenza and thus feeding antivaccine narratives, using sleight-of-hand to downp…

I love how people attack the character of anyone who says anything even remotely against the pharmaceutical industry and their narratives. They like to find some sort of evidence that they are one of those "anti-vaxxers" and think that discredits them. Now they don't have to debate anything.

How about you argue with the points made in the article? Do you disagree with anything in the article? Is their dreaded "misinformation" in it. If so point it out and ideally provide some evidence.

I am pro transparency especially when it comes to a global pandemic. I've always been that way. I'm not going to change my opinion because some other person has the same opinion. I don't give a rats ass who wrote the article. It could have been Santa Claus. I like to read articles and do my own research and form my own opinions. People like you who want to try to discredit people so you can silence debate are the biggest problem in this pandemic.

Oh, and you know who else got AIDS and HIV completely wrong? Dr. Fauci.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#22

Post by Shartacus »

ceejayoz wrote: post #20
drcross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so sick of comments like this. I'll read the goddamn information presented to me and use my own critical thinking skills to determine what I see as useful. Whatever past the person has, if there is a potential issue with something, it's someone like this who has been paying attention with a focus on the matter who will alert us first.

Quoted post unavailable.

No post body was provided.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#23

Post by fabian2k »

brianmcc wrote: post #12

I remember writing the following about the AstraZeneca vaccine in Nov 2020 when concerns were raised with it. Two things can be both be true: - the vaccine is safe and effective - parts of approach in running studies weren't as good as they should have been Seems to perhaps apply here too.

Why not? Any mistake or design flaw in the trials reduces their value, it doesn't completely eliminate it.

The mistake in the AZ trial is something I consider extremely embarassing and stupid (assuming the published information about it is correct). It's the kind of mistake nobody that actually works in a lab should make, and I really question the competency of the people involved here. But in the end this meant that a part of the study got a half-dose of the vaccine. That makes the interpretation a bit more difficult, but it does not invalidate the trial.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#24

Post by mberning »

It’s incredible how quickly pharmaceutical companies rehabbed their deservedly awful reputation by using the pandemic. Years from now, maybe decades, I’m sure we will find out there were very troubling results from the clinical trials that were swept under the rug.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#25

Post by YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo »

Shartacus wrote: post #19
ceejayoz wrote: post #4

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-heck-happened-to-t... has some stuff to say about the author (about 2/3 the way down), including signing a petition doubting that HIV causes AIDS. > Indeed, Doshi has history of playing footsie with the antivaccine movement, amplifying antivaccine conspiracy theories, downplaying the severity of influenza and thus feeding antivaccine narratives, using sleight-of-hand to downp…

Quoted post unavailable.

Dude it's your fourth account in 5 minutes have some respect for yourself.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#26

Post by walterbell »

fabian2k wrote: post #14

At this point the original phase 3 trials are pretty much irrelevant, we have so much more data now from the actual use of the vaccines. They really play no role at all now. In terms of effectivness we're three major SARS-CoV2 variants further, and for looking at rare side effects we have billions of doses now compared to tens of thousands in those trials. I'm all for putting pressure on everyone in Science to publis…

> They really play no role at all now.

The (small) controlled trial data can be combined with the (large) uncontrolled mass-population data, e.g. one can look at the larger dataset for corroboration of weak signals in the smaller dataset.

New controlled trials can be started, where further evidence is needed.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#27

Post by blast »

ceejayoz wrote: post #20
drcross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so sick of comments like this. I'll read the goddamn information presented to me and use my own critical thinking skills to determine what I see as useful. Whatever past the person has, if there is a potential issue with something, it's someone like this who has been paying attention with a focus on the matter who will alert us first.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Cool. What if it's misleading?

That question applies in literally every case and therefore doesn't change change the optimal strategy.

> What if it requires some domain expertise to detect a reasonable-sounding, but actually false claim?

That question applies just as much to links from "sciencebasedmedicine.org" as it does to the OP.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#28

Post by cyanydeez »

fabian2k wrote: post #14

At this point the original phase 3 trials are pretty much irrelevant, we have so much more data now from the actual use of the vaccines. They really play no role at all now. In terms of effectivness we're three major SARS-CoV2 variants further, and for looking at rare side effects we have billions of doses now compared to tens of thousands in those trials. I'm all for putting pressure on everyone in Science to publis…

this stuff just smacks of iignorance and attempts to continue tompoliticize clear public health concerns.

i am sure there will be a red herring in all the data that will cash a small enough shadow.

but this jibbering is about dragging science down to the level of far right ignorance, which is the onlymplace concervatives can win.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#30

Post by choward »

ceejayoz wrote: post #20
drcross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so sick of comments like this. I'll read the goddamn information presented to me and use my own critical thinking skills to determine what I see as useful. Whatever past the person has, if there is a potential issue with something, it's someone like this who has been paying attention with a focus on the matter who will alert us first.

Quoted post unavailable.

No post body was provided.
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