Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#11

Post by daenz » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

>The BMJ supports vaccination policies based on sound evidence. As the global vaccine rollout continues, it cannot be justifiable or in the best interests of patients and the public that we are left to just trust “in the system,” with the distant hope that the underlying data may become available for independent scrutiny at some point in the future. The same applies to treatments for covid-19. Transparency is the key to building trust and an important route to answering people’s legitimate questions about the efficacy and safety of vaccines and treatments and the clinical and public health policies established for their use.

Serious question: if the raw data could potentially undermine public trust in the US government, can it be classified as a matter of national security?

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#12

Post by brianmcc » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

I remember writing the following about the AstraZeneca vaccine in Nov 2020 when concerns were raised with it.

Two things can be both be true:

- the vaccine is safe and effective

- parts of approach in running studies weren't as good as they should have been

Seems to perhaps apply here too.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#13

Post by YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 10:09 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #11

>The BMJ supports vaccination policies based on sound evidence. As the global vaccine rollout continues, it cannot be justifiable or in the best interests of patients and the public that we are left to just trust “in the system,” with the distant hope that the underlying data may become available for independent scrutiny at some point in the future. The same applies to treatments for covid-19. Transparency is the key…

Everythihng can be declared a matter of national security...

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#14

Post by fabian2k » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 10:09 PM UTC

At this point the original phase 3 trials are pretty much irrelevant, we have so much more data now from the actual use of the vaccines. They really play no role at all now. In terms of effectivness we're three major SARS-CoV2 variants further, and for looking at rare side effects we have billions of doses now compared to tens of thousands in those trials.

I'm all for putting pressure on everyone in Science to publish more raw data. This kind of data is likely more complicated because it's really hard if not impossible to anonymize the actual patient-level data. It still should be as accessible as possible to other scientists.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#15

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #11

>The BMJ supports vaccination policies based on sound evidence. As the global vaccine rollout continues, it cannot be justifiable or in the best interests of patients and the public that we are left to just trust “in the system,” with the distant hope that the underlying data may become available for independent scrutiny at some point in the future. The same applies to treatments for covid-19. Transparency is the key…

> Serious question: if the raw data could potentially undermine public trust in the US government, can it be classified as a matter of national security?

No, probably not. The government doesn't really have the authority to classify information generated by private entities like Pfizer barring specific legislation.

The closest you'd likely come is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act, but that allows (temporary) suppression of patents, not clinical trial data.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#16

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 10:11 PM UTC

uvesten wrote: post #6

It seems there has to be some amendments to rules about releasing raw, anonymized trial data when the state is sponsoring development of the drug. Also, how can Pfizer claim that their "study" ends in 2023? Several hundred million people have already received their vaccine, unaware that it's part of a study where the clinical data is not even accessible to their doctors...

> Also, how can Pfizer claim that their "study" ends in 2023?

Because it does. https://beta.clinicaltrials.gov/study/NCT04848584

> Several hundred million people have already received their vaccine, unaware that it's part of a study

Because it's not. Use under the EUA and subsequent approval is separate from and in parallel with continuing studies.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#17

Post by drcross » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 10:11 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #4

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-heck-happened-to-t... has some stuff to say about the author (about 2/3 the way down), including signing a petition doubting that HIV causes AIDS. > Indeed, Doshi has history of playing footsie with the antivaccine movement, amplifying antivaccine conspiracy theories, downplaying the severity of influenza and thus feeding antivaccine narratives, using sleight-of-hand to downp…

I'm so sick of comments like this. I'll read the goddamn information presented to me and use my own critical thinking skills to determine what I see as useful. Whatever past the person has, if there is a potential issue with something, it's someone like this who has been paying attention with a focus on the matter who will alert us first.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#18

Post by fleetside72 » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 10:13 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #4

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-heck-happened-to-t... has some stuff to say about the author (about 2/3 the way down), including signing a petition doubting that HIV causes AIDS. > Indeed, Doshi has history of playing footsie with the antivaccine movement, amplifying antivaccine conspiracy theories, downplaying the severity of influenza and thus feeding antivaccine narratives, using sleight-of-hand to downp…

its really hard to ignore the persons character, but not addressing the argument (and instead talking about the persons character) is a logical fallacy.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#19

Post by Shartacus » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #4

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-heck-happened-to-t... has some stuff to say about the author (about 2/3 the way down), including signing a petition doubting that HIV causes AIDS. > Indeed, Doshi has history of playing footsie with the antivaccine movement, amplifying antivaccine conspiracy theories, downplaying the severity of influenza and thus feeding antivaccine narratives, using sleight-of-hand to downp…

No post body was provided.

Re: Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now

#20

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

drcross wrote: post #17

ceejayoz wrote: post #4

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-heck-happened-to-t... has some stuff to say about the author (about 2/3 the way down), including signing a petition doubting that HIV causes AIDS. > Indeed, Doshi has history of playing footsie with the antivaccine movement, amplifying antivaccine conspiracy theories, downplaying the severity of influenza and thus feeding antivaccine narratives, using sleight-of-hand to downp…

I'm so sick of comments like this. I'll read the goddamn information presented to me and use my own critical thinking skills to determine what I see as useful. Whatever past the person has, if there is a potential issue with something, it's someone like this who has been paying attention with a focus on the matter who will alert us first.

No post body was provided.