No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation • Hacker News Board

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#211

Post by _jal » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

lostgame wrote: post #158

funklute wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but “worse things are legal” is not a good reason. It's a very good reason to at least change one of the two. Either make the worse thing legal, or criminalise the "better" thing. Arbitrary rules are never a good thing.

>> Arbitrary rules are never a good thing. Any parent, ever - will be able to tell you this is a fact. If you think arbitrary rules can stick, wait until your kid hits the 'why'/'how come' phase. In this case, the government is the parent making an arbitrary rule and the people represent the 5-year-old kid asking why. Parent: 'You can drink, but you can't do cocaine.' Kid: 'Why?' Parent: 'Because cocaine is bad for y…

Reasoning about society by infantilizing adults is also a terrible way to reason about policy.

Leaders are not parents, states are not families, national budgets do not compare to your bank account, and adults are equal partners in our society.

I realize you're trying to get at psychological tendencies, but the premise is flawed and leads to applying faulty intuitions in disasterous ways.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#212

Post by LesZedCB » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

boringg wrote: post #163

Is anyone surprised by this? Alcohol being good for the body was pushed by the Alcohol lobby a long time ago and made its way into the mainstream consciousness. It has lingered because people enjoy drinking and because of powerful incentives not to change. How large is the alcohol industry and how many people are directly tied to it? Am I saying we shouldn't drink? No the amount of stimulating conversations I have ha…

I guess you could say the alcohol lobby was "cooking with gas"

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#213

Post by WithinReason » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

misiti3780 wrote: post #153

endisneigh wrote: post #42

Of course it isn’t. Drink water. Unfortunately some people believe they can’t enjoy themselves without alcohol. It’s curious: - babies have fun without drinking - kids have fun without drinking - some teens have fun without drinking Then at some point some people, as adults, feel like they have to drink to enjoy themselves? I wonder what happened. Edit: explicitly clarifying that I’m only talking about some people he…

Yes, but wine makes food taste infinitely better. I don't want to eat my rare filet with a glass of water, I want to eat it with and chilled bottle of natural Syrah from the North Rhone (preferably Dard et Ribo)

You chill red vine? Savage.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#214

Post by nradov » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #162

mmastrac wrote: post #11

Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent. While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.

Counterpoint: alcohol is one of the best drugs on the planet for anyone on the spectrum of introversion to crippling social anxiety. In all my (many) years, I have found no better path to becoming socially acceptable (even likable) to neurotypicals/extroverts than 3-4 shots of vodka. This is an unfortunate, but very real fact for many of us. I've heard good things about Phenibut, but (1) it's very difficult to obtain…

There are also many people who self medicate with opioids to treat chronic depression. I certainly wouldn't recommend that depressed people try opioids, but empirically it seems to be effective in reducing symptoms for some patients at least temporarily.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#215

Post by CSSer » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

jdlyga wrote: post #22

Interesting how there's a major shift in the knowledge about risks of things like sugar, cigarettes, alcohol, etc. And it usually turns out there was an industry group involved in sort of a coverup. The lesson here is to take any health claims or dismissal or risks with a grain of salt when there's a big industry behind it.

Of course you'd say that. You clearly work for the salt lobby! In all seriousness though, who stands to benefit from this? In the case of sugar, doctors wanted to suggest limiting it, but lobbyists pushed for the advocation of limiting fat intake instead (which was thought to be just as unhealthy at the time). Sugar was a clear substitute because removing fat makes things taste like, well, cardboard. Off the top of my head, I'm not aware of any substitutes for tobacco products or alcohol. Recreational services, maybe? Even Bowling alleys typically have bars.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#216

Post by Spivak » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

cies wrote: post #46

mmastrac wrote: post #11

Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent. While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.

> to at least be consistent. No not be a total joke as a gov't. I love the stories on "refer scare" and the prohibition (which has become some big historical period like the renaissance, merely by retarded gov't policy). And not like we're done with it. New Zealand is considering to ban tobacco sales to the next generation. What could probably go wrong with that? Is age discrimination now all of a sudden okay? (this…

> Is age discrimination now all of a sudden okay?

This line of reasoning doesn't capture any nuance. These kinds of things operate on an allowlist. Unless there is a law enacted specifically as an exception then no, in general age discrimination is not okay.

Voting, alcohol, weed, driving, truancy, parental control, marriage, consent for sex, contract law, criminal law, social security, retirement accounts, and military service all discriminate based on age despite it being the guiding principle that you should avoid using age for restrictions when possible. The law has plenty of examples of min and max ages.

If there was any other way to ban cigarettes without making life miserable for people who are currently addicted? Because we should absolutely ban cigarettes. The victim is the cigarette smoker and the crime is the manufacture and sale of a an addictive substance that it not safe to use in any amount.

I agree with you that a law making it illegal for people to smoke is silly, the law should apply to manufacturers and distributors.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#217

Post by tasha0663 » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #54

A fitbit helped me discover how terrible alcohol is for your heart. I could clearly see which days I would have a drink because my average resting heart rate would go from 63-65 to 77-80!

You easily could have done that just worrying about it.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#218

Post by reaperducer » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #11

Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent. While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.

Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent.

I've never understood the arguments like yours, which I used to hear a half-century ago in high school, and now see presented online. They distill down to "We allow this one bad thing, so we should allow all of the other bad things, too." As if having more bad things is better than having fewer bad things.

I don't drink, so I don't care if alcohol gets banned or restricted or whatever. But these type of arguments always strike me as little more than "Billy jumped off the bridge, so I can, too!"

I really don't see the logic here.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#219

Post by coding123 » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

I've been waiting for something like this. Now we need to get the AMA to reverse its stance too. I've seen too many people start with the one drink excuse, and multiply by the number of days they HAVEN'T had a drink. It's totally irresponsible messaging.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#220

Post by RobertRoberts » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

tikkabhuna wrote: post #176

RobertRoberts wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slippery slope. What happens when a drug addict looking his next fix attacks someone? This is why we have drug laws to start with, was to protect people. There are no simple answers here.

I don't believe the poster above is saying that there should be no intervention, they're saying they shouldn't be criminally prosecuted. There should be a non-criminal route for helping drug addicts that doesn't result in prison.

I can agree with that, but what is it? It can't be forced rehab, that is just jail but different. And addicts by definition _won't_ seek help or a solution.