No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation • Hacker News Board

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#191

Post by Accacin » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #69

lotsofpulp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistency in legal matters seems like a good and necessary thing for ensuring fairness. What is the basis for Emerson’s quote to apply here?

I’m generally pro-legalization, but there are many things that we hypothesize are safe but do not know the long-term effects of and, within living memory, have discovered that many things initially thought safe were not. People were taking X-ray images of shoe fit in department stores, we used thalidomide to treat morning sickness, etc. What society says is legal has an effect on how it is perceived and how frequentl…

I do agree with this argument, but most of the time legalising doesn't just make problems disappear. It needs to be paired with better access to mental health facilities, rehabilitiation, etc.

Making drugs legal doesn't mean people will start abusing them. I do not drink or take drugs, and both are easy as hell to access here in the UK.

The benefits for me of legalising drugs would be making it easier for people to seek help with less stigma attached to it, remove drug dealers out of the equation, make it safer to procur drugs if people are going to take them anyway, I believe it would also make scientific research much easier which in turn might help us to know the long term effects of these drugs.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#192

Post by ravenstine » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #11

Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent. While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.

I agree with the point on consistency, but must substances be viewed through the lens of "abuse" and "mental health"? It's not clear if you are implying that use of alcohol is generally a form of drug abuse related to mental health. In fact I'm not sure we can adequately define what is "abuse" in this case.

Take for instance Lemmy from Motorhead, who used alcohol and drugs heavily throughout his life and probably died an early death as a result; can that really be considered abuse when he, pardon my French, didn't give a shit?

For some people, things like alcohol are a serious issue and overuse can stem from both physical and psychological addiction. Then you've got people who use it sparingly. And yet there are people who drink heavily, know exactly what they're doing, and can't easily be classified as addicts without projecting one's own life choices unto them.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#193

Post by lancesells » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

BirAdam wrote: post #88

mmastrac wrote: post #11

Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent. While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.

All drugs should be decriminalized. Shooting people in drug raids is far worse for those people than are the drugs. Likewise, locking people in cages with other misfits, criminals, malcontents, and addicts isn’t smart (especially considering that drugs are in the prisons too). If the goal is truly harm reduction, people need to simply work to convince drug users to not use drugs (whether those are opioids, alcohol, t…

I'm not refuting and generally agree with your sentiment here in harm reduction but I tried to see the collateral damage of drug raids vs drugs.

In the US the CDC reported 100,000 overdoses from drugs in the 12 months preceding April 2021[1]. I can't find how many people die from drug raids specifically but this Al-Jazeera article shows 1,068 people being killed by the police a year after George Floyd died[2].

And for a little more context Statista[3] shows 21,750 people being murdered in 2020.

Police kill at ~1% the rate of drug deaths. Citizens kill at ~20% the rate of drug deaths.

1. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/... 2. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/25/how-many-people-hav... 3. https://www.statista.com/statistics/191134/reported-murder-a...

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#194

Post by kubb » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #42

Of course it isn’t. Drink water. Unfortunately some people believe they can’t enjoy themselves without alcohol. It’s curious: - babies have fun without drinking - kids have fun without drinking - some teens have fun without drinking Then at some point some people, as adults, feel like they have to drink to enjoy themselves? I wonder what happened. Edit: explicitly clarifying that I’m only talking about some people he…

> I wonder what happened.

What's the difference between the life of a child and that of an adult? You seem to be very close to figuring it out. (Tip: adults have little to no leisure time).

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#195

Post by the_only_law » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #162

mmastrac wrote: post #11

Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent. While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.

Counterpoint: alcohol is one of the best drugs on the planet for anyone on the spectrum of introversion to crippling social anxiety. In all my (many) years, I have found no better path to becoming socially acceptable (even likable) to neurotypicals/extroverts than 3-4 shots of vodka. This is an unfortunate, but very real fact for many of us. I've heard good things about Phenibut, but (1) it's very difficult to obtain…

I’ve recently taken to trying Kava, which seems to be relatively popular among people trying to quit alcohol/benzos/etc.

Supposedly it also helps with disinhibition and socialization, but admittedly I haven’t tried it in a social setting so I’m not sure myself. It certainly does relax me and chill me out though without the dumbing down of alcohol.

Of course, by the things I’ve seen in those “pop-medical” sites that fill Google search results, you’d think it’s much more dangerous than alcohol.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#196

Post by fleddr » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #141

fleddr wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the value of "consistency" in this matter?

Legal consistency has many benefits. The two that first come to mind are: • making it easier for non-experts to reason about the law • consistency is, in my experience, usually a property of fairness

Let's keep it practical. Alcohol is here to stay and will not be prohibited. For historical reasons, culture, whatever...it stays.

Yet other harmful substances are currently banned and you opt to unban them for...consistency. It's like saying when two countries are at war, why can't we all be at war? Seems "unfair".

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#197

Post by Tenoke » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #162

mmastrac wrote: post #11

Alcohol is one of the worst "drugs" on a personal/societal harm scale - if we're going to tolerate this at large, we should probably consider legalizing everything else that's less harmful to at least be consistent. While we're at it, let's de-stigmatize the abuse of substances and treat it like a real mental health issue.

Counterpoint: alcohol is one of the best drugs on the planet for anyone on the spectrum of introversion to crippling social anxiety. In all my (many) years, I have found no better path to becoming socially acceptable (even likable) to neurotypicals/extroverts than 3-4 shots of vodka. This is an unfortunate, but very real fact for many of us. I've heard good things about Phenibut, but (1) it's very difficult to obtain…

GHB is probably an even better replacement than Phenibut as it's safer, has less of a hangover/rebound and can be used more often to no detriment but it has a worse reputation, needs to be dosed correctly (taking twice the dose accidentally means you pass out for 4 hours), and if you for some reason end up using it 24/7 the addiction is as bad to kick as with benzos or alcohol.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#198

Post by selectodude » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #172

sokoloff wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m generally pro-legalization, but there are many things that we hypothesize are safe but do not know the long-term effects of and, within living memory, have discovered that many things initially thought safe were not. People were taking X-ray images of shoe fit in department stores, we used thalidomide to treat morning sickness, etc. What society says is legal has an effect on how it is perceived and how frequentl…

That is faulty logic. We hypothesize that mRNA vaccines for COVID-19 are safe but do not know the long term effects. Why should we exercise conservatism for some drugs but not for vaccines? To be clear, I'm just using that as an example of logical inconsistency and I recommend that everyone eligible protect themselves by getting vaccinated. I also think that all recreational drugs should be legalized (or at least dec…

For what it's worth, mRNA immunotherapies for cancer have been being injected into people for almost 20 years now. Efficacy aside, we know the medium-long term outcomes of injecting ourselves with mRNA.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#199

Post by kstrauser » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

dfinninger wrote: post #154

endisneigh wrote: post #42

Of course it isn’t. Drink water. Unfortunately some people believe they can’t enjoy themselves without alcohol. It’s curious: - babies have fun without drinking - kids have fun without drinking - some teens have fun without drinking Then at some point some people, as adults, feel like they have to drink to enjoy themselves? I wonder what happened. Edit: explicitly clarifying that I’m only talking about some people he…

I have tremendous enjoyment in my life without drinking. Running, hiking, biking, cooking, movies, road trips, museums, concerts, new restaurants, etc… There are also enjoyable things that involve drinking too, but _needing_ a drink to enjoy oneself seems a bit hyperbolic for the average adult, no?

I hike and camp a lot with my kid’s Scout troop, and agree: there’s so much fun you can have without alcohol. That said, there’s also a time factor. When we’re up in the mountains, we have a couple of days dedicated to the activity, and we can all relax into it. When a bunch of coworkers go out after work, they’ve got a couple of hours to go from work-mode to play-mode before going home for the night, and alcohol can greatly facilitate how quickly a person can switch from one to the other.

I enjoy the same things you’re talking about sober (except maybe concerts — is that even legal?), but understand why a group of friends would start their evening together with a round of drinks.

Re: No amount of alcohol is good for the heart, says World Heart Federation

#200

Post by the_only_law » Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #133

BirAdam wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All drugs should be decriminalized. Shooting people in drug raids is far worse for those people than are the drugs. Likewise, locking people in cages with other misfits, criminals, malcontents, and addicts isn’t smart (especially considering that drugs are in the prisons too). If the goal is truly harm reduction, people need to simply work to convince drug users to not use drugs (whether those are opioids, alcohol, t…

Slippery slope. What happens when a drug addict looking his next fix attacks someone? This is why we have drug laws to start with, was to protect people. There are no simple answers here.

> What happens when a drug addict looking his next fix attacks someone?

You arrest and charge them for attacking someone?