if isnt regulated, the politians are guilty. they have to create laws and regulations on time (sorry my poor english)
Killing people and causing property damage are already thoroughly regulated.
A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
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Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#72Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.
Do we hold pilots accountable when the plane in on autopilot? Genuinely curious.
Yes, but autopilot in plane is much much different. It is not about detecting and avoiding other planes, it is about following a route and recovering from various flight situations. You don't have an autopilot for when they are on the ground.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#73I feel like with all the tech advantage Tesla claims to have it should have some way to turn off autopilot in situations where it's not applicable instead of always saying "you're not supposed to use it like that". Just start beeping or something when you're not on the highway and then shut off the autopilot
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#74Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.
Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…
Tesla should be liable for misleading consumers. They released videos demo'ing autopilot and ignoring their own guidelines of always having hands on the wheel. They call their feature "autopilot"/"FSD" and Elon has been personally promising real FSD next year every year for the past 5 years.
When people's lives are in danger, there should be greater accountability over the marketing that companies are trying to pass off as hard truth.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#75Here is an interesting question I recently came upon, does the driver of a Tesla need consent from their passengers before turning on FSD? I would argue yes, because I don’t want to unknowingly beta test software with my life, but I am curious what others think.
As a kid, do you even have consent when your parents tell you to hop in the car cause you're going somewhere? As a passenger, isn't consent of trusting the driver inherent when you get in the car willfully ride somewhere? Could a passenger not interject and say, hey I don't feel comfortable riding with you if you enable autopilot?
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…
Tesla markets their software as "full self-driving". Their page on their own website[1] for the autopilot has a video which starts with the words "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself." Followed by a video of a tesla driving itself on public roads with other cars around while the person's hands are not on the wheel. While they have those…
They market the vehicles as being capable of full self driving at some point in the future. They don't market them as being capable of such today. It's in the very copy you cite at the end of your comment.
> Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. (Control-F of this quote gets you there)
EDIT: You must also acknowledge that you remain in control of the vehicle when activating Autopilot within the vehicle: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/images/autosteer-e...
You're also reminded each and every time you activate Autosteer.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#77No.
It's easy to blame the driver, until you consider whether or not the premise of a "partially automated self driving car" is fit for the road. It is not possible to both "stay alert" to anywhere near the same degree required for manual driving, and let an automated navigation system take control.
If you sell something inherently dangerous to people under the premise that it is not dangerous provided you do something that is impossible (but not obviously impossible to most people) - bad things are significantly more likely to happen, in other words, it is not only dangerous but misleading.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#78In my experience driving Teslas on autopilot (a few dozen hours), you need to keep watching the road. The whole time. Especially on on/off ramps and around traffic lights. I almost watched a Tesla I was operating drive into a meridian on a highway off-ramp because the concrete was approximately the same color as the road. I slowed down to see how long it would take to detect the coming collision ... and if I hadn't b…
Basically you're a voluntary data labeller for their deep learning algorithms. If you take the wheel it means they need to train more on similar situations. Are they hoping to eventually experience so many different situations that out of sample data becomes unlikely? Sounds like a pipe dream to me?
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#79Ultimately yes. You are the driver of the car. It is involuntary manslaughter. Even if it is a software error, even if the brakes stop working, even if x, y or z (etc) It is always the responsibility of the driver to accept the consequences of any forseen or unforseen actions of any kind of outcome. Depending on the unfortunate event, any mitigating events might be taken into account.
This is a very interesting opinion, however, I don't think it works like that in any jurisdiction.
It works like this in just about every US jurisdiction, it's just that most of the time the DA declines to prosecute if your brakes fail. But there's no legal protection, you're still possibly going to be charges.
Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Tesla markets their software as "full self-driving". Their page on their own website[1] for the autopilot has a video which starts with the words "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself." Followed by a video of a tesla driving itself on public roads with other cars around while the person's hands are not on the wheel. While they have those…
They market the vehicles as being capable of full self driving at some point in the future. They don't market them as being capable of such today. It's in the very copy you cite at the end of your comment. > Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. (Control-F of this quote gets you there) EDIT: You must also acknowledge that you remain in control of the vehi…
> It's in the very copy you site at the end of your comment.
Most of the way down a long page, in faint small text in the middle of a blurb. Nothing could possibly scream "we don't want you to read this, but we're required to put it in so that we and our fans can continue to make bad-faith defenses of our marketing program" more.