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Metro

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Re: Metro

#121

Post by ajg1977 »

masklinn wrote: post #113
eykanal wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what would it look like? Consider Powerpoint. There needs to be a way to switch slide layout, add elements to the slide, work with animations & transitions, reorder slides, etc. And that's just some of the things that users will want to do all the time, on almost every slide. There's just no way to have that sort of rich interface in Metro. Heck, there's not even a menubar . Remember, we're talking about regular…

> But what would it look like? Consider Powerpoint. http://itunes.apple.com/app/keynote/id361285480 > There needs to be a way to switch slide layout, add elements to the slide, work with animations & transitions, reorder slides, etc. And that's just some of the things that users will want to do all the time, on almost every slide. There's just no way to have that sort of rich interface in Metro. See link. It's perfec…

>> Can it do pretty much everything useful of it?

No, not really. It's great for presenting, useful for making small tweaks to existing content, and painful for trying to create presentations that go beyond stuffing text in the provided templates.

This is also true of Numbers. Pages is pretty good though.

Re: Metro

#122

Post by schiptsov »

Who needs Windows that cannot run their old lovely trojan.exe and virus.exe^W^W^W old-proprietary-crap.exe and in-house-crap.exe that was developed 10 years ago and all contacts of the developers, leave alone sources, got lost or never been made?

The ability to run an old win32 desktop crap.exe is what Windows is all about. Only a complete idiot will choice it as a platform for a new, build from the ground up project, or, god forbid, a server.

And there is enough ways to run a web-browser, especially plug-in-less one. It is called Android. ^_^

Re: Metro

#123

Post by zhwang »

ethank wrote: post #26
eddiegroves wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"like a gloss on Windows 7" - From what I've read[1] so far this is not the case. The APIs that 'Metro style' apps use are built deep into Windows. In fact it seems more like the opposite - legacy Windows is treated more like another app that you can switch to, if you're on x86/x64 machine. [1] http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/windows-8-devel...

I'm speaking from the beta. The act of going between a "traditional" looking UI and Metro and what is available in each is very disjointed.

And this is why kudos must be given to Microsoft for not making the distinction between "Developer Preview" and "Beta" more noticeable. Wasn't one of the reasons behind Vista's huge flop being that in the betas, driver support was incredibly lacklustre?

It's not a direct parallel, but this and the fact that companies like Google have completely upturned the definition of "beta", or well, pre-releases in general, seems to show how people come to their final judgement very easily.

I suppose that could be why Apple doesn't release things until they're well and truly ready for the limelight.

Re: Metro

#124

Post by zhwang »

xpaulbettsx wrote: post #11
Steko wrote: post #2

Contra-Gruber I'm betting ARM Windows 8 devices will have some mode that looks and feels just like Windows desktop. It may not be the default and it may be a dumbed down version of it but I can't imagine them shipping without it.

I believe it's already confirmed that Win8 ARM devices will indeed be Metro-only - no legacy Desktop whatsoever.

Nope. Straight from Gruber himself: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/09/14/for-realsies

Re: Metro

#125

Post by bgarbiak »

I don't know why everyone (well, ok, I know why Gruber does that) focuses on Apple and iPad after seeing Windows 8. IOS is an established system, with a healthy ecosystem of developers and apps. IPhone and iPad dominate the mobile market with ease. That won't change anytime soon. Besides, Apple had showed in the past that they can survive living as a Microsoft competitor. They will do just fine. Who should be worried about Windows 8 is Google. Android tablets didn't set the world on fire, Chrome OS from the very beginning looks like a low-profile project. And here comes Windows 8 which offers the same thing as Chrome OS (cloud, HTML5/JS apps, etc.) and does that in a better fashion than Honeycomb. Plus, it will run Windows software. Apple users learned to live without Windows software, Google users - didn't. Considering the fact that Microsoft will offer an integration with Bing, Skype, Hotmail and your latest Nokia phone by default even the great Google services could be in trouble.

Re: Metro

#126

Post by Robin_Message »

_sh wrote: post #100
_sh wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'regions' used in QuickDraw are an amazing (for their time) data structure, a testament to the genius of Bill Atkinson. I strongly recommend reading the patent to see how cool and useful they were to the original Mac windowing system ( http://patentdetails.patenttools.com/patent/04622545?searchi... click on the 'download pdf' link in the top left). Steve Jobs know how important regions were: http://www.folklore.o…

Obviously I meant 'Steve Jobs knew how important regions were'. In a semi-related matter, does anyone know of the algorithm Bill used to draw RoundRects 'blisteringly fast'? http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s...

I've been intending to write a blog post retrospective on the workings and algorithms of the quick draw library, but regions seemed too big a topic to start with. You've given me an idea though: I'll have have a go at RoundRects first and see if there is any interest.

Re: Metro

#127

Post by icebraining »

Tloewald wrote: post #89
gbog wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like these ideas Gruber and friends are repeating and repeating again. In the article, it is carved in marble: "the advantages that come from NOT allowing you to do so many [things]". The reasoning behind is that Steve Jobs or other said genius should be choosing for you what you are "allowed" to do. It feels awfully 1984 for me. I live in China and I can tell you it is painfull, sometime, when someone else c…

It's kind of nutty to equate technological simplification and totalitarianism. Some people don't want to solder their own computers together or inspect their own meat. We need, occasionally, to draw a line of abstraction over complicated stuff so we can build upwards. This is why we code in high level languages rather than toggling switches on front panels, even though it meant surrendering some "freedom".

Yes, layers of abstraction can be useful. I don't see how the iOS restrictions are a layer of abstraction, though.

And selling pre-built computers doesn't mean you have to glue the box shut. You just have to make sure people don't have to mess or even think about the internals unless they really want to.

Re: Metro

#128

Post by gbog »

raminf wrote: post #95
gbog wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like these ideas Gruber and friends are repeating and repeating again. In the article, it is carved in marble: "the advantages that come from NOT allowing you to do so many [things]". The reasoning behind is that Steve Jobs or other said genius should be choosing for you what you are "allowed" to do. It feels awfully 1984 for me. I live in China and I can tell you it is painfull, sometime, when someone else c…

If you cast the app universe as 'open' vs' 'closed' as some have tried to do or 'free' vs. 'controlled,' then yes, of course, open and free are better. But there are a few other ways to look at it: - Chaotic vs. orderly. - A pile of laundry vs. neatly folded - Unfiltered vs. filtered - Amateur vs. professional - Unedited vs. curated Pick whichever way you want and your perspective might be different. It's really in h…

I am ok with the idea that on a given app market, website, content provider, the proprietors can and should curate the content the way they decide.

What I am not ok with is that the makers of a machine I buy keep a too strict control on what I can do with this machine I bought. We are grownups, we should be allowed to use the things we buy in the way we please. As far as I know, if I do something illegal with a Porsche or an iPad, their respective makers are not responsible of that misbehavior, and therefore should not be entitled to forbid me from doing it.

Re: Metro

#129

Post by xradionut »

As a long time third-party Windows developer, I don't call the rectangular regions "Windows" I call them frames or containers.

Also a few questions could be answered by downloading the Developer Preview. The Windows 7 desktop still exists, (thankfully for these of us that need to get our jobs done), but how a user will use Metro on a desktop or laptop will probably be dependent on their tasks and desires. As database application developer and admin, I'll be sticking to the desktop and the CLI a majority of the time.

Re: Metro

#130

Post by ugh »

zmmmmm wrote: post #80

> Tradeoffs. Mutually exclusive tradeoffs. Separate devices are required. ... And you can’t give iOS apps even the option to run continuously in the background without sacrificing battery life and foreground app performance This is a typical Gruberism of false logic. He starts with the notion that all Apple's decisions are holy and right. He then derives conclusions by extrapolating from that. There is no reason that…

Compared to desktop operating systems Android does very limited multitasking or, to put it in another way, it is cleverer about multitasking (iOS, too).

Remaining backwards compatible while picking up such a new model of multitasking is hard. Very hard. Apple made parts of it opt-in with Lion but that’s not the same as requiring everyone to adhere to the model and today hardly any app supports it.

Gruber simply sees this as a hard challenge that is, at least currently, not solvable if Windows is to stay backwards compatible. That’s all. He might be wrong but I think that position is quite sensible.

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