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Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

universiteitleiden.nl

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Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#761

Post by nec4b »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #745
nec4b wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually that happened in every socialist country before they prevented their citizens from emigrating.

I have a feeling you're pedantically latching on to the word 'socialist' as a, frankly quite silly, effort to try and link the concept of higher taxes with authoritarian-communist countries. I believe you to be arguing in bad faith. Otherwise, I can simply point out that many almost all the countries with single-payer health care are still plenty enough peopled to be able to pay for it and don't have to have any drac…

What does single payer system have to do with UBI? Americans also have medical insurance and they also pay for it one way or the other. The UBI tax would come on top of that. The same thing as in single payer countries. Your are not disproving inglor_cz's assertion in any way.If anything you confirmed it with an example of socialist countries.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#762

Post by JacobThreeThree »

DaltonCoffee wrote: post #742
JacobThreeThree wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Some places that could be considered a UBI welfare state would be Scandinavian countries or parts of Canada Canada does not have any UBI. What are you referring to?

The welfare and employment insurance system in parts of Canada (ie: those parts with little or seasonal employment) are effectively UBI.

EI is not even close to what is commonly described as UBI. Not universal at all.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#763

Post by laserlight »

JoshuaDavid wrote: post #755
laserlight wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't do the same for non-wage slavery, do we?

We do ask the general question of "what costs are we willing to bear to reduce the amount and human toll of actual slavery". Actual slavery is illegal, certainly, but there are still instances of it happening, even today[1,2,3]. We could spend more resources to further reduce the number of cases where this happens, and there are plenty of people saying we should. In theory, a complete enough surveillance state, where…

Not only bad things, but also everything can be traded off against some other thing. That doesn't mean we should. There's an economic value assigned to human life, but we don't let someone kill another one by paying a markup.

We should get rid of wage slavery. We can then work on the economic consequences.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#764

Post by tekknik »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #744
tekknik wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you get how you’re changing their life for a decision they didn’t make right?

Depends on the company maybe? Were you in a project that went bad? Last time I did a robot project, the people who would ultimately be the machine operators were involved every step of the way, learning and building together with the team. I'm not sure how installing a handful of machines in one small corner of a huge factory that's already full of machines would somehow change someone's entire life. Hopefully it doe…

> Depends on the company maybe? Were you in a project that went bad?

I have never worked in robotics, save for hobby drones and hexapods. The question is not whether we would enjoy it, it’s whether someone else will. You seem very convinced that you should decide what people do for work. That’s the part I’m trying to get across to you, you should not have that power for anybody but yourself.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#765

Post by tekknik »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #734
tekknik wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you’re either taking from the rich and killing innovation, and thereby jobs, or you make everything state owned and go full on socialism, or you cause inflation. All of these make everybody poorer.

Or - you do the other thing, the UBI thing, which is none of those things you mentioned. Anarchist capitalism is probably the closest as far as i can see so far.

yup, UBI was what i was talking about there. read it again.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#766

Post by tekknik »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #725
tekknik wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone’s a drug dealer? Doesnt sound plausible. Where did I say drug dealer? Or is this the first time you’ve heard of jobs getting paid under the table? And yes some of them had much more than $50k judging by their things. But hey, make them more wealthy. Some people are really good at gaming the system.

So that's not a poor person then, you said poor person but it sounds like you mean something else?

Again, you can be poor on paper but not actually poor. It’s called tax evasion.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#767

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

nec4b wrote: post #761
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a feeling you're pedantically latching on to the word 'socialist' as a, frankly quite silly, effort to try and link the concept of higher taxes with authoritarian-communist countries. I believe you to be arguing in bad faith. Otherwise, I can simply point out that many almost all the countries with single-payer health care are still plenty enough peopled to be able to pay for it and don't have to have any drac…

What does single payer system have to do with UBI? Americans also have medical insurance and they also pay for it one way or the other. The UBI tax would come on top of that. The same thing as in single payer countries. Your are not disproving inglor_cz's assertion in any way.If anything you confirmed it with an example of socialist countries.

The assertion seemed to be that higher taxes which go to universal social programs cause people to flee, I provide examples of countries that have higher taxes going to social programs where people have largely not fled even though such activity is not prevented. I fail to see how this confirms the assertion.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#768

Post by tekknik »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #730
tekknik wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But back to the entitlements - why is a teacher going to agree to teach an unruly kid? You missed my point, the kid is unruly because of the entitled attitudes running around this country. If you pay people UBI, it doesn’t fix this, it exacerbates it. Fix the entitled attitude by making people earn what they get instead of handing it to them and maybe we’ll fix that attitude and not have to destroy our economy?

>> it exacerbates it If you're behaving in an entitled way, and you're told - i'm sorry you're not welcome here. Having sufficient dollars is not enough for entry to my classroom - then what's the problem with them continuing to be entitled off on their own elsewhere? When society is no longer driven by profit, then other forms of exchange become relatively more important again. It'd be no bad thing if basic decency…

> If you're behaving in an entitled way, and you're told - i'm sorry you're not welcome here. Having sufficient dollars is not enough for entry to my classroom - then what's the problem with them continuing to be entitled off on their own elsewhere?

And this requires giving everybody money instead of just fixing the entitled attitudes by kicking them out of your store? Why are we choosing the most expensive path?

> If this idea were true, it would have happened already.

Because we have actually addressed the entitlement and not fed it right?

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#769

Post by tekknik »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #726
tekknik wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are there no golfers? I explained why, read it again. And golf is not a basic need, it’s entertainment. Which in hard times nobody pays for. You’re gonna choose golf over eating?

>> If everyone has basic needs met, shelter, basic food >> You’re gonna choose golf over eating? Why?

Read it again, i explained already.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#770

Post by tekknik »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #732
tekknik wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that’s why our money is worth anything in the first place. Unless you’re trying to make arcade tokens worthless outside of the arcade.

>> Because that’s why our money is worth anything in the first place The reason most currencies are worth anything are because you get thrown in jail if you fail to pay tax levied upon you denominated in that currency.

No, money is worth something because another country wants to buy stuff you make and this must be done in your currency. Stop making what people want, or keep devaluing your money to the point where holding it means you lose value, and people stop using your currency. They become arcade tokens that only have value inside the borders. You cannot force value, economics 101.
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