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How A.I. Conquered Poker

nytimes.com

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Re: How A.I. Conquered Poker

#31

Post by protoax »

jstx1 wrote: post #27

But it hasn't conquered it! I kept searching the article for some new recent breakthrough that I've missed but it's not there. Yes, solvers like Pio have been around for years and limit holdem has been essentially solved for a while but nobody plays limit holdem anyway. The two most popular games (no-limit Texas holdem and pot-limit Omaha) are still unsolved.

Hasn't Facebook's Pluribus come pretty close to "solving" no-limit holdem? I don't know a lot about poker so I can't really assess their claim's validity.

Re: How A.I. Conquered Poker

#32

Post by conductr »

smallerfish wrote: post #21

I think there's room for a "battlebots meets online poker" product. Imagine buying your bot a real money budget and setting it loose in a tournament to combat other bots.

I'm actually working on this as a side project. I've been dragging my feet as I wasn't sure anyone would want to "code to play" and had no real marketing plan.

It's a fun project though, especially trying to design in a way that proves I'm not manipulating the deck behind the scenes.

Email in profile if anyone is up for being an alpha player.

Re: How A.I. Conquered Poker

#33

Post by rainonmoon »

fdgsdfogijq wrote: post #23
paxys wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chess has been "solved" by computers for a long time now, yet the online Chess community is bigger than ever. I don't see why it would be any different for Poker.

Big difference with poker is that its all about money, the game doesnt work if people arent risking something. And if computers are superior, the game breaks down.

Poker is not really all about money. Plenty of games might only ask you to stake like $5 but the joy and aim of the game is really to outplay the table, not take home $25.

Re: How A.I. Conquered Poker

#34

Post by vanusa »

paxys wrote: post #22
torginus wrote: post #18

Does this mean that online poker is effectively over?

Chess has been "solved" by computers for a long time now, yet the online Chess community is bigger than ever. I don't see why it would be any different for Poker.

Unlike with chess, in the poker world there's a huge financial incentive to run bots (or provide bot assistance to live players).

Re: How A.I. Conquered Poker

#36

Post by throwaway287391 »

fdgsdfogijq wrote: post #23
paxys wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chess has been "solved" by computers for a long time now, yet the online Chess community is bigger than ever. I don't see why it would be any different for Poker.

Big difference with poker is that its all about money, the game doesnt work if people arent risking something. And if computers are superior, the game breaks down.

> Big difference with poker is that its all about money, the game doesnt work if people arent risking something.

I don't see this, I used to really enjoy online poker tournaments for play-money. It's a fun and strategic game in and of itself with nothing more than minor bragging rights on the line, to me at least. I honestly don't see why it should be any different from chess in terms of purely recreational play. (You could say chess is a deeper game, and that's probably true in some ways, but that's not a positive feature for casuals like me with no desire to invest many hours/years into mastering the game.)

Re: How A.I. Conquered Poker

#37

Post by evrydayhustling »

jstx1 wrote: post #27

But it hasn't conquered it! I kept searching the article for some new recent breakthrough that I've missed but it's not there. Yes, solvers like Pio have been around for years and limit holdem has been essentially solved for a while but nobody plays limit holdem anyway. The two most popular games (no-limit Texas holdem and pot-limit Omaha) are still unsolved.

There is still a lively academic community and major progress! Check out CMU's no limit results [1]. (I realize articles like this have to pick some angles to make it interesting, but it was weird to see only dated research mentioned.)

But if you are rooting against the machines, don't worry: it is almost certainly impossible to calculate a full equilibrium policy for no limit multiplayer, so we will instead be debating over the virtues of various types of imperfection for a long time. And even if an Oracle gave us convenient access to equilibrium strategy, it would still not be the optimum at a table full of imperfect players. Your poker game is safe for a while!

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02156-9

Re: How A.I. Conquered Poker

#38

Post by noambrown »

jstx1 wrote: post #27

But it hasn't conquered it! I kept searching the article for some new recent breakthrough that I've missed but it's not there. Yes, solvers like Pio have been around for years and limit holdem has been essentially solved for a while but nobody plays limit holdem anyway. The two most popular games (no-limit Texas holdem and pot-limit Omaha) are still unsolved.

Bots are superhuman in no-limit Texas hold'em. Libratus beat top humans in two-player in 2017 and Pluribus beat top humans in six-player in 2019: https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.aao1733 https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.aay2400

It's shocking that the reporter didn't mention these results or anything else more recent than 2015.

Re: How A.I. Conquered Poker

#39

Post by soferio »

What teaching or training tools are out there for a very average player at no limit Texas hold’em who just wants to get at bit better to a respectable level at a modest time commitment , and does not need to be a pro-level player?

Re: How A.I. Conquered Poker

#40

Post by JacobThreeThree »

rainonmoon wrote: post #33
fdgsdfogijq wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big difference with poker is that its all about money, the game doesnt work if people arent risking something. And if computers are superior, the game breaks down.

Poker is not really all about money. Plenty of games might only ask you to stake like $5 but the joy and aim of the game is really to outplay the table, not take home $25.

For the purpose of AI "conquering" poker the money makes a huge difference.

Would you play the same way if you were betting your life savings versus $5?

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