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Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

universiteitleiden.nl

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Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#721

Post by tekknik »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #676
tekknik wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is expected, just disappointing. "I got mine, fuck you" is not exactly the kind of thinking we wish our fellow citizens engaged in. What it too to get mine, required very hard work and literally signing my life away for 4 years. Then, when I started gaining, I got fined for not having health insurance. Now that I can comfortably afford my health insurance and am starting to look at buying a house, here’s the lef…

I never understood how twisted someone's mind has to be in order to say "I suffered, so I'll fight to make others suffer too".

I’ve never understood why people are so willing to give up what they’ve earned for people who are not trying that just have their hand out. Why do we do it this way, those that want to help can pay the UBI tax and receive the payments. The rest of us that don’t want it can never receive it but also don’t have to pay. Why don’t we do that instead?

Also I’m a Navy veteran. I can’t tell you how many times I can back from deployment to see actual hatred from these people I had never met, who I was defending their freedom for. The idea of helping others is gone after 1) I already did by defending their freedom and 2) most people here are assholes only thinking of themselves, so i joined them.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#722

Post by tekknik »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #707
tekknik wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if they have interest in operating the robots, and the intelligence. If they don’t have either one of those, nope, they just lost a job because of your decision.

Maybe I've gotten lucky with machine operators so far. The ones I've met are intelligent, though their locus of intelligence is in their thumbs. Someone on a project needs to have it there, so that's just fine by me!

But you get how you’re changing their life for a decision they didn’t make right?

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#723

Post by seba_dos1 »

tekknik wrote: post #720
seba_dos1 wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not. You were able to read open source code and learn from it, taking advantage of a lot of effort its authors put into it (who knows, maybe you even stumbled on some of my work out there?). You had access to computers and to the Internet, and had time to use it, most likely thanks to your parents, which isn't a given. You admitted yourself that you turned into publicly funded military for it to invest into your…

> You were able to read open source code and learn from it, taking advantage of a lot of effort its authors put into it (who knows, maybe you even stumbled on some of my work out there?). I knew you were going to fixate on that, as you’re grasping at straws, which is why I put it in there. The amount of source code I read was one project, a php web framework. Yea I learned about 2 things from it back then, which I’ve…

> Until you do that you won’t understand.

I already said that I don't even have a degree. All you did in this thread was proving the point of my original comment.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#724

Post by tekknik »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #723
tekknik wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You were able to read open source code and learn from it, taking advantage of a lot of effort its authors put into it (who knows, maybe you even stumbled on some of my work out there?). I knew you were going to fixate on that, as you’re grasping at straws, which is why I put it in there. The amount of source code I read was one project, a php web framework. Yea I learned about 2 things from it back then, which I’ve…

> Until you do that you won’t understand. I already said that I don't even have a degree. All you did in this thread was proving the point of my original comment.

No, I haven’t. You are assuming people give out info for free. What you’re saying is essentially that your degree was free. Someone had to pay for it. For me it was buying books. Did those authors help me with free books? No they charged me just the same. How is this getting help from others? Unless you believe that if you gain knowledge at all even with compensation from someone else is help. But that’s just commerce.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#725

Post by CraigJPerry »

tekknik wrote: post #715
CraigJPerry wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> They’re able to afford these things because they are actually receiving income, it’s just not reported Everyone’s a drug dealer? Doesnt sound plausible. Or at least They’re getting so much income they can afford to run a fancy car (debt free because who’s lending to a person with minimal documented income). I mean is that a poor person when they have $50k laying around to go buy a fancy car outright? Something abo…

> Everyone’s a drug dealer? Doesnt sound plausible. Where did I say drug dealer? Or is this the first time you’ve heard of jobs getting paid under the table? And yes some of them had much more than $50k judging by their things. But hey, make them more wealthy. Some people are really good at gaming the system.

So that's not a poor person then, you said poor person but it sounds like you mean something else?

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#726

Post by CraigJPerry »

tekknik wrote: post #717
CraigJPerry wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> So if there are no golfers Why are there no golfers? If everyone has basic needs met, shelter, basic food, healthcare, you’re telling me no one is going to make use of some time to go play some golf? Why? >> why are the groundskeepers making so much? Golf courses dont magic out of thin air, ubi can do a lot but it’s not magic. You’re going to have to pay someone enough that they choose to specialise then take on t…

> Why are there no golfers? I explained why, read it again. And golf is not a basic need, it’s entertainment. Which in hard times nobody pays for. You’re gonna choose golf over eating?

>> If everyone has basic needs met, shelter, basic food

>> You’re gonna choose golf over eating?

Why?

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#727

Post by disambiguation »

akvadrako wrote: post #691
disambiguation wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the difference is not simply semantics. The main difference between NIT and UBI is that your check is conditional on working. From the article: > De Kwaadsteniet: ‘In the condition without social security, the test participants didn’t receive a basic sum. In the benefits condition they received a basic sum, which they lost as soon as they started working. In the basic income condition they received the same basic…

That isn't how the term is normally used. This is a good intro: https://www.scottsantens.com/negative-income-tax-nit-and-unc... And you can even see on wikipedia that: > Therefore, a family with $0 income would be entitled to receive $1500 in subsidy. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

Oh TIL thanks!

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#728

Post by thegrimmest »

danaris wrote: post #709
thegrimmest wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but the people who will suffer first and most from an industry dying out, or costs increasing, would be the poorest people.

The people who will suffer most from continuing the way we're going are also the poorest people. If the industry is dying out because we introduce universal basic income , then the poorest people will still be at least as well off as they are now, and in many cases much better, because they are guaranteed to continue to be able to pay their bills, no matter what happens with their employment status.

If an industry dies out/becomes more expensive due to UBI, then the first people to lose access to the goods/services provided by that industry are the most economically constrained people.

> guaranteed to continue to be able to pay their bills

This all depends on how well your UBI keeps up with inflation. If you trigger runaway inflation, then you won't be able to buy bread with a wheelbarrow full of cash. Fundamentally, it's not about how much money people have, but about how much work they do. If UBI reduces the amount of work done overall in the economy, it will contract said economy and make everyone poorer as a result.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#729

Post by caskstrength »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #694
caskstrength wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yeah, this is exactly what I've been saying in this thread: Any realistic UBI program will be payed by taxes on middle class.

So go use those arguments you already mentioned, about redistribution and buying houses, against current taxes. You can even use the same complaints about freeloaders. You made it sound like this caused new objections, rather than being one more bout of business as usual tax griping.

You seem to be upset with my arguments for some reason. However, if you read some other comments here and multitude of previous UBI-related discussions, you will see that there are a lot of people who (naively) assume that UBI will be somehow financed by taxes on corporations (from one of the comments: "Really, you'd just want to tax corporations over a certain size that are both highly automated (i.e. high revenue per employee), and have lopsided compensation structures (which could be measured by CEO to median worker pay)."). However, if you want to get a good approximation how modern politicians structure similar programs, then just look at California health care tax proposal (aka "Let's make healthcare free for ourselves and get tech-bros pay for it!").

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#730

Post by CraigJPerry »

tekknik wrote: post #716
CraigJPerry wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> And with more entitlements With more money in some cases and less in others. Entitlements, that’s far too broad an umbrella. What exactly would you be entitled to beyond sufficient money to make a basic living and pursue the free pleasures in life (which are generally among the best available in life). What’s more fulfilling, spending $130k to ride the vomit comet for a couple of hours - i say this as someone who…

> But back to the entitlements - why is a teacher going to agree to teach an unruly kid? You missed my point, the kid is unruly because of the entitled attitudes running around this country. If you pay people UBI, it doesn’t fix this, it exacerbates it. Fix the entitled attitude by making people earn what they get instead of handing it to them and maybe we’ll fix that attitude and not have to destroy our economy?

>> it exacerbates it

If you're behaving in an entitled way, and you're told - i'm sorry you're not welcome here. Having sufficient dollars is not enough for entry to my classroom - then what's the problem with them continuing to be entitled off on their own elsewhere?

When society is no longer driven by profit, then other forms of exchange become relatively more important again. It'd be no bad thing if basic decency to other humans was a requirement to access services you'd like to consume.

>> Fix the entitled attitude by making people earn what they get instead of handing it to them and maybe we’ll fix that attitude

If this idea were true, it would have happened already.

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