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Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

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Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#251

Post by h2hq »

armchairhacker wrote: post #137
virgulino wrote: post #44

Something is not right. CNN reported the same study, with contradictory quotes from the same doctor: Fourth vaccine dose boosts antibodies, researchers say, but likely not enough to prevent Omicron breakthrough infections http://lite.cnn.com/en/article/h_69134b5be555abcb7c1609154ab... --- healthpolicy-watch.news ----- According to Regev-Yochay, the third dose resulted in “much higher antibodies, neutralization and th…

My understanding is that a fourth booster doesn't seem to prevent breakthrough infections (which are very common with Omicron), but it does seem to reduce severity and hospitalizations (which are very uncommon with Omicron). Maybe it reduces the chance of a breakthrough but it's still common. This is what the third booster does and probably also what being vaccinated closer to infection date does. This is exactly wha…

Your comment does not address the contradiction in the parent comment.

The contradiction is that two media outlets are stating opposite statements from the same source with regards to whether the 4th booster raises the amount of antibodies.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#252

Post by h2hq »

rsfern wrote: post #118
RhysU wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does an extra booster reduce hospitalizations and deaths? A meta question: how do these studies control for the fact that people who care enough to get a booster are more likely to care proactively about their health? Lots of good outcomes correlate with caring.

Usually they used randomized controlled trials for this sort of thing, which in a well designed study will account for this sort of bias Whether the population in the trial generalized to the population at large is a bit different question and I think is where the bias you’re highlighting could come into part

It cannot be randomized for a vaccine trial since the participants are all people who want to be vaccinated.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#253

Post by sofixa »

bagacrap wrote: post #248
sofixa wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is fear of the unvaccinated clogging up hospitals the primary motivation? Yes? Hasn't it always been? Beds in ICUs are the main limiting factor of how much Covid we can handle. Lowering hospitalisations is great, that way it can end up as "just a bad flu" we have ( as in, a virus that's present, and spreading, and people get it, and some unfortunate people die from it, but doesn't grind whole countries to a stop).

that sounds revisionist to me. If that were the reason for (attempted) vaccine mandates then why do vaccine advocates feel the need to compel young, healthy people who have a vanishingly small chance of hospitalization to vaccinate? The story has always been about reducing spread.

Because those young people still have a chance to end up in the hospital, even if they're in great health ( as far as they know it). And it's not like a vaccine mandate can only apply for people in bad health - how would that even be decided? Erring on the side of caution seems to be a decent idea.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#254

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

Terretta wrote: post #237
timr wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. At the very worst the vaccine causes harm , and provides no benefit. > I don't want to go around checking if people had or did not have Covid, which a lot of people are prone to lying about. We're not talking about sterilizing immunity. Even the best case arguments for booster doses in the young are citing efficacy against "symptomatic illness" that is well below 100%. Case in point: I just had it. I'm triple vac…

> I'm triple vaccinated. Why?

Not the parent, but in many countries in Europe you need to have a vaccine passport to lead a more-or-less normal life - and in extreme cases, you are not allowed to work and are forced to pay a fine if it expired. So often having a booster or not is not a matter of personal choice.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#255

Post by h2hq »

ummonk wrote: post #15

> the amount of antibodies returns to the level it was after the third vaccine, not more. It’s nice, but it’s not what we expect from a booster So basically it doesn’t confer any long term benefits - the only value from it would be if you want to keep your circulating antibodies high by perpetually boosting on a regular interval.

Antibodies are not long term, ever. They always degrade in the blood system.

...but that's also not the only type of immune response that a vaccine generates.

Vaccines cause the creation of b-cells, which retain the memory of this virus antigen and will re-create antibodies if the virus infects the host.

b-cell immunity is persistent - for years, and probably decades. But because it is very hard to measure (it resides in your bone marrow), it is therefor not often reported on.

Having said that, it is hard to imagine that a 4th booster significantly increases the number of anti-covid b-cells - let alone ones that can impart immunity against the newer variants.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#256

Post by h2hq »

luke2m wrote: post #25

We really need to get people from countries that don’t have the resources to buy up all the supply vaccinated. It will help the richer countries, too, if variants aren’t mutated there.

Animals also get covid - so there's little hope of preventing future variants at all.

The majority of covid infections on Earth are not in humans at all.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#257

Post by h2hq »

vmception wrote: post #4

Shot from seasonal ailment two seasons ago not effective this season, here is the most random news source you can find to tell this obvious truth

To be clear, there are plenty of virus vaccines that are lifelong.

It is unfortunate that the covid mutates as fast as influenza, but it was not a given at the beginning of the pandemic. Many scientists claimed that enveloped viruses were less likely to mutate, and that the covid vaccine would likely maintain immunizing effectiveness for years.

It was a disappointing outcome, not an obvious one.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#258

Post by DanBC »

twofornone wrote: post #236
DanBC wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Official UK data shows approximately equal rates of death between vaccinated and unvaccinated. No, the UK data does not show this.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=%2fpeoplepopulationandcommun... - table 7.

And that shows, very clearly, huge differences in rates. EG, here:

   January 40-49 Unvaccinated 1,015 447,582 224.9
   January 40-49 Within 21 days of first dose 15 19,088 76.0
   January 40-49 21 days or more after first dose 3 3,808 77.0
   January 40-49 Within 21 days of second dose
Have you misunderstood the source you're using?

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#259

Post by epgui »

rhino369 wrote: post #222
epgui wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might all be true, but it’s all cherry picked out of context. Had we had broad vaccine immunity in the early days of the pandemic, the situation may have turned out differently. Over time, things change.

Officials, Pfizer, and Moderna were loudly celebrating the "94%" or "95%" effectiveness, which was measured in symptomatic cases. Now its 0-20% w/o a booster. The vaccine is clearly less effective than before, which is understandable given the new variant. But it's definitely disappointing--a lot more people will die because the herd immunity clock got reset.

This take I can get behind, because it's a contextual description of what really happened.

(It's funny getting downvoted on this topic, because not only have I been following the pandemic with great interest just as anyone else, but this is actually very close to my area of expertise.)

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#260

Post by stunt »

landemva wrote: post #147
stuaxo wrote: post #74

Great, can we get on with vaccinating the rest of the world now ?

With whose money? Is it possible to vaccinate all wild animals and every house cat?

Some countries don't have enough vaccine not because they can't pay for it. They are just way down in the queue cos others with more cash did a lot of bulk pre-orders.
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