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A delightful quirk of relativity theory

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Re: A delightful quirk of relativity theory

#41
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter threads don’t bother me. The brain quickly adapts to skipping the irrelevant parts (username, like buttons, etc) and to expecting the cadency of tweets. I believe it is harder to write (due to the character limit of each text block), but, far from “unreadable”, I can read it fairly easily.

Oh, I don't bother by the stupidly repeated usernames and dates. I just want to read the damn thing. But it is literally unreadable to me. I couldn't finish reading the thread and had to find an alternative way out of twitter. Fist trial, using my android phone with fennec fox. There is a modal that hides the content asking me to "log in"; if I close the modal I go back to the twitter homepage. Thus unreadable becaus…

I got it now. Yes, Twitter is a walled garden, even if it has large windows to see most of things, there is definitely a wall there.

The tricky part is that if this was published in a static html page it would be less likely that it would reach us (even if the page was linked in the thread). Distribution is hard.

A good compromise I think is keeping the thread but having a link to a blogpost with the same content in the first (or second) tweet.

A Twitter thread formatting tool that also publishes a web version and automatically link to it in the second tweet is a good micro Saas idea if anyone is looking I think.

Re: A delightful quirk of relativity theory

#42

This would be more fun in a blog post. Twitter is a fucking horrible format for a complex analysis of special relativity. That aside, my favourite quirk from relativity is this: "The more you move in space, the less you move in time." Like relativity in general, it sounds simple enough, but it's consequences are profoundly shocking. (That is, if you take the time to understand it, and don't leap to the conclusion tha…

Rescuing free-will from the jaws of spacetime would be cool!

Free will does not exist. It is logically inconsistent. Either your choice is some function of your current state and the environment you are in, then the choice is not free, or it is independent of your current state and the environment you are in, then it is not your choice in any meaningful way, it is just the result of a coin flip.

You can do some mental gymnastics, define free will as being able to do what you want, define it as being free of various kinds of constraints, call it free if the choice is not computable in advance, if you can not measure all necessary variables, in practice or in theory, ... If you are happy with any of those definitions, fine, then you might have this kind of free will, but I would not consider any of those particularly interesting.

Re: A delightful quirk of relativity theory

#43

This would be more fun in a blog post. Twitter is a fucking horrible format for a complex analysis of special relativity. That aside, my favourite quirk from relativity is this: "The more you move in space, the less you move in time." Like relativity in general, it sounds simple enough, but it's consequences are profoundly shocking. (That is, if you take the time to understand it, and don't leap to the conclusion tha…

> "The more you move in space, the less you move in time."

Isn't that missing a bit at the end? The less you appear to move in time from a different frame of reference?

We all move through time at exactly 1 second per second, don't we?

For reference: Here's Sean Carrol saying exactly that (but in reply to a different question)

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2021/12/15/ama-...

"...it always goes by one second per second. That’s the only speed at which time can possibly go by, and that’s true whether you’re speeding or staying still or in a gravitational field or not. There’s no such thing as the speed with which we move through space-time, the idea of a speed is the amount of distance we travel as a function of time, that’s what speed is. So it just doesn’t apply to going through space-time, it’s a different kind of thing."

Re: A delightful quirk of relativity theory

#44
post #42

This would be more fun in a blog post. Twitter is a fucking horrible format for a complex analysis of special relativity. That aside, my favourite quirk from relativity is this: "The more you move in space, the less you move in time." Like relativity in general, it sounds simple enough, but it's consequences are profoundly shocking. (That is, if you take the time to understand it, and don't leap to the conclusion tha…

Rescuing free-will from the jaws of spacetime would be cool! Free will does not exist. It is logically inconsistent. Either your choice is some function of your current state and the environment you are in, then the choice is not free, or it is independent of your current state and the environment you are in, then it is not your choice in any meaningful way, it is just the result of a coin flip. You can do some menta…

The typical source of confusion is conflating "free" with "unpredictable". But they're not the same thing at all.

Re: A delightful quirk of relativity theory

#45
post #42

This would be more fun in a blog post. Twitter is a fucking horrible format for a complex analysis of special relativity. That aside, my favourite quirk from relativity is this: "The more you move in space, the less you move in time." Like relativity in general, it sounds simple enough, but it's consequences are profoundly shocking. (That is, if you take the time to understand it, and don't leap to the conclusion tha…

Rescuing free-will from the jaws of spacetime would be cool! Free will does not exist. It is logically inconsistent. Either your choice is some function of your current state and the environment you are in, then the choice is not free, or it is independent of your current state and the environment you are in, then it is not your choice in any meaningful way, it is just the result of a coin flip. You can do some menta…

You've put the dilemma nicely - it can't be both 'free' and 'your will' by your definitions (well, without admitting supernatural beings that can affect and be affected by the natural world, but are not part of it).

Personally I'm happy with other definitions, not because I feel I'm doing mental gymnastics, but because the version you give is clearly not what normal people mean by it when they refer to it. It might well be related to what philosophers argue about, but normal people who offer you a 'free choice' or who say that you did something 'of your own free will' do not mean anything like 'your choice was not a function of the state of the universe'.

Despite being happy with those other definitions that you aren't, I'm equally skeptical of the idea that free will has to be rescued just because different points in time can be observed simultaneously. What does someone even mean by free will if it can't cope with that?

Re: A delightful quirk of relativity theory

#46

This would be more fun in a blog post. Twitter is a fucking horrible format for a complex analysis of special relativity. That aside, my favourite quirk from relativity is this: "The more you move in space, the less you move in time." Like relativity in general, it sounds simple enough, but it's consequences are profoundly shocking. (That is, if you take the time to understand it, and don't leap to the conclusion tha…

"Rescuing free-will" would depend on there being something to rescue in the first place. I've yet to see a definition of free will that a casual observer would agree is "free" once you strip it of the smoke and mirrors.

To me the Andromeda Paradox isn't very interesting, because the question is only problematic if you consider time as a process that events happen within simultaneously in a way that you can precisely globally order by positing some way of counting objective units of time backwards from the point the two people on earth both see the invasion force.

If you instead look at the passage of time as simply the propagation of cause and effect where the propagation rate may differ depending on features of the events being propagated, then you get a dependency graph where when you interact different cause-effect chains meet. Only the nodes (events happening) matters, not the edges (the unobservable-because-nothing-interacted other than propagation).

The notion of something happening simultaneously then becomes abstract - you have no objective matter of measuring something being simultaneous except by whether or not they directly interact in a given moment. You're relying on your universe behaving in a way that means you can count events to try to maintain a chronology on the basis you know how they're spaced apart. But the best we can do is count the number of such events that happens in different frames under different conditions between causal chains merging.

Once you ditch the idea of "global ordering time" the "paradox" is nothing of the sort.

Because in that respect talking about "when" the event in Andromeda happened is meaningless, because it is a conversation based on projecting a model of the world as it appears from one local part of that cause-effect graph to another on the basis that there's an objective global ordering outside of what we can impose by counting chronology comparing clock time when we directly interact. It may make your mental model of what happened when messy, but that is because thinking of what happened when instead of what interacted with what in which order is messy.

(if there's any way of achieving faster than light travel, my totally-usupported-by-any-theory bet is that it would show our notion of time to be too static, and that it'd "bypass" the cause-and-effect paradoxes by affecting the laws of physics at the points of FTL interactions)

Re: A delightful quirk of relativity theory

#47

This would be more fun in a blog post. Twitter is a fucking horrible format for a complex analysis of special relativity. That aside, my favourite quirk from relativity is this: "The more you move in space, the less you move in time." Like relativity in general, it sounds simple enough, but it's consequences are profoundly shocking. (That is, if you take the time to understand it, and don't leap to the conclusion tha…

> "The more you move in space, the less you move in time." Even better IMO: everything is moving at the max speed (c) through spacetime, and accelerating along one dimension means decelerating along other dimensions; for example, stationary objects have 0 speed in spatial dimensions but move at c through time, and photons move at c through space but are stationary along the time dimension.

I think this conveys the right intuition but it's a bit finicky and artificial to make that concept precise so I think it's better to say that the concept of moving through spacetime at a given speed is not well-defined.

Particles have a trajectory through spacetime. They don't move along the trajectory because the time dimension is already part of the trajectory. So the speed at which they move along their spacetime trajectory seems to be a meaningless concept.

What is true however is that if the particle takes a clock with it, and you mark a tick every second the clock ticks, then the ticks will be equally spaced along the trajectory (where distance is measured using the Minkowski metric).

This makes a bit more precise what it means for photons to be stationary along the time dimension. It does not mean that they move horizontally in a space-time diagram. They move diagonally at speed c, as you expect, so for an outside observer they do move through time. However, the Minkowski distance between any two points on photon trajectories is zero. So if you wanted to annotate their trajectory with the clock tickmarks you could start somewhere and put your first tick there, but then your second tickmark would be infinitely far away on their trajectory.

Thus, for an outside observer, a clock approaching the trajectory of a photon would appear not to tick.

From a different point of view, we can reason by analogy to Euclidean geometry. When we have a curve through space we can talk about the tangent vector at any point. But the length of the tangent vector is not a well-defined concept. Only its direction is. You can define the length of the tangent vector for a particular parameterisation p(t) but for the curve itself, i.e. the set {p(t) : t in R}, the length of the tangent vector is not defined.

It is similar for a curve through spacetime. We can parameterise a curve with some variable x and write the curve as {p(x) : x in R} but this is just a set and the length of the tangent vector of p(x) depends on which parameterisation you chose for the curve. But the data of how a particle moves through spacetime is only the curve {p(x) : x in R} itself, not the function p(x): different parameterisations describe the same physical situation as long as the set {p(x) : x in R} is the same.

Re: A delightful quirk of relativity theory

#48

This would be more fun in a blog post. Twitter is a fucking horrible format for a complex analysis of special relativity. That aside, my favourite quirk from relativity is this: "The more you move in space, the less you move in time." Like relativity in general, it sounds simple enough, but it's consequences are profoundly shocking. (That is, if you take the time to understand it, and don't leap to the conclusion tha…

Well, another way of looking at it is that the observer is not the same as the decider. So ultimately your reference frame is only current within the locus of your own mind and any decisions you make get broadcasted out to observers in the universe. They make their own decisions about where to be, how fast to be, and so on, and from their perspective it could be yesterday from when the decider decided, but its irrele…

FWIW, I feel this is the right way to look at it. Furthermore (or perhaps I should say equivalently) the "observers" on Earth have not observed the decision, and thinking of them as such seems to be a Galilean fallacy.

Re: A delightful quirk of relativity theory

#49

This would be more fun in a blog post. Twitter is a fucking horrible format for a complex analysis of special relativity. That aside, my favourite quirk from relativity is this: "The more you move in space, the less you move in time." Like relativity in general, it sounds simple enough, but it's consequences are profoundly shocking. (That is, if you take the time to understand it, and don't leap to the conclusion tha…

> Twitter is a fucking horrible format for a complex analysis of special relativity.

Keep in mind that regular people can and have simply replied to the theoretical physicist who posted it and received replies helping them understand better. In this sense it’s a fantastic medium. The same magic that keeps reliably producing spectacular “ah, actually I have a phd in the thing you’re arguing with me about” moments is at play here lowering the barrier to talk to really smart people.

Re: A delightful quirk of relativity theory

#50
post #42

This would be more fun in a blog post. Twitter is a fucking horrible format for a complex analysis of special relativity. That aside, my favourite quirk from relativity is this: "The more you move in space, the less you move in time." Like relativity in general, it sounds simple enough, but it's consequences are profoundly shocking. (That is, if you take the time to understand it, and don't leap to the conclusion tha…

Rescuing free-will from the jaws of spacetime would be cool! Free will does not exist. It is logically inconsistent. Either your choice is some function of your current state and the environment you are in, then the choice is not free, or it is independent of your current state and the environment you are in, then it is not your choice in any meaningful way, it is just the result of a coin flip. You can do some menta…

How about, the fact you can even argue that free will exists is a demonstration of it.
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