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Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

artforum.com

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Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#141

Post by andriesm »

cabalamat wrote: post #136
pembrook wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds basically like a grant program, not UBI. However, slapping the phrase UBI on your program while it’s trendy is a genius way to “rebrand” something most governments already do. Politicians are the best marketers.

> Politicians are the best marketers They are certainly accomplished liars.

The only redeeming feature for me is that the scope is so limited... to some number of artists... because an unbounded program would just be an incentive for all unemployed people to lie about being artists... By limiting the numbers means you have to have a crtierion whereby people are accepted. Another program I like is apparently India pays chess. grand masters a bit of a living stipend so they can focus on their chess? I think such things can be better uses of money than the typical wasteful expenditure of government programs... in this case the money goes to people most likely to use it in good ways or people who have shown merit. To become a chess GM is exceptional. Just like being a serious artist as a lifestyle.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#142

Post by Zababa »

I don't understand. If you want to be "an artist", why not work at a regular job doing part-time, and doing your artist stuff part time? Lots of people in STEM have creative aspirations that they pursue in their free time, why should the people that didn't pay attention to how to organize your life be the one that get help?

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#143

Post by richrichardsson »

dskloet wrote: post #69
richrichardsson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never really looked too closely at the idea of UBI, although I like the concept. I always assumed that any money you earn would then be deducted from future payments. With completely arbitrary numbers, let's say UBI was 1000€/month and I earned 500€ in a particular month, then next month my UBI payment would be reduced by that amount. If I earned 1500€ my next UBI payment would be zero, but the excess 500€ would…

That's a terrible way to implement UBI. It causes the dreaded welfare trap where people are incentivized to do nothing. UBI should be unconditional. This makes it much easier to implement, removes the stigma, and most importantly avoids the welfare trap. You want people who rely on welfare to be encouraged to become self sufficient, not trap them in dependence.

Is the welfare trap real though? I suspect it may be for tiny minority, but imo most people would prefer to actually do something than sit on their ass and collect money for nothing. Again I may be grossly naïve in this area.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#144

Post by lou1306 »

If you want to give money to artists, why don't you, er, pay them for doing their thing? Like, enlarge art schools, support exhibitions or festivals, whatever.

Of course just raining money on (some of) them requires way less effort, but it makes it seem like art is just a money sink and cannot create tangible value (spoiler: it can).

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#145

Post by rsynnott »

goblin89 wrote: post #91
pembrook wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds basically like a grant program, not UBI. However, slapping the phrase UBI on your program while it’s trendy is a genius way to “rebrand” something most governments already do. Politicians are the best marketers.

A few times in the past 3–5 years I came across Europeans who would travel and do stuff like photography or filmmaking while being compensated by the government. I was told that those are programs where basically all you need is to be an unemployed artist. (Some of those people would also do remote software consulting or such, although I think that was bending the rules slightly.) For a country that wants to start a…

> mislabeling it (because of course it is not actually universal) as “UBI” could be strategic

Note that the Irish government, which already has a bunch of other artists' grants and supports, is _not_ calling it "universal". That's a (mostly foreign) media thing.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#146

Post by pydry »

3pt14159 wrote: post #128
ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

Passing a flat tax in a major democracy is difficult because it's a tax designed to be heavily regressive whilst sounding vaguely fair if you dont pay too much attention.

It's equally hard if not harder to pass a well run progressive tax (e.g. a land value tax).

Instead we get a hodgepodge of progressive and regressive combined to reflect the power struggle between oligarchy and democracy that makes up most western power centers.

Also we get mollified with political pipe dreams designed to be easy to murder in their sleep (e.g. UBI) to take the heat off more "dangerous to profit" policies like minimum wage hikes.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#147

Post by rsynnott »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #131
arcticbull wrote: post #2

Well that's not really universal by any metric (you have to be an artist, there can't be too many applicants or you'll get subjected to lottery) but I'm still enthusiastic. It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. These feel more like government artist in residence grants.

> It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. we are all artists in that way. I don't play or paint, but in my country I take care of some vineyard a couple of centuries old, at my expenses. Of course I also enjoy the wine made from them and make no money out of it, I lose a little bit every year. Should I be included in those that "build the cultural heritage"…

Many big wine producing nations actually do have a range of grants and tax exemptions for this sort of thing.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#148

Post by DocTomoe »

3pt14159 wrote: post #128
ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

If you raise taxes and prices a lot, UBI will become basically useless, because it's effects will be eaten up by inflation.

Hell, why wouldn't I increase rent to the UBI amount?

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#149

Post by Kbelicius »

geocar wrote: post #111
ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

It irks me too; It irks me because this is dangerous: Whether this succeeds or fails tells you (or me) nothing about the values (or costs) of UBI, but it is awful convincing to people who don't understand the difference between UBI and welfare, and it is hard not to imagine someone against UBI (like a capitalist) actually endorsing these kinds of welfare-mislabelled-as-UBI; to specifically shit in the pool when every…

It irks me when people confuse news headlines for news. Ireland is not launching a UBI for artists, it is launching BI for artists. The only place you could find "universal" mentioned is this article.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#150

Post by Kbelicius »

ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

This is marketing for the artforum. I couldn't find anywhere else that talks about this as UBI, certainly not the government.
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