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Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

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Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#131

Post by peoplefromibiza »

arcticbull wrote: post #2

Well that's not really universal by any metric (you have to be an artist, there can't be too many applicants or you'll get subjected to lottery) but I'm still enthusiastic. It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. These feel more like government artist in residence grants.

> It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage.

we are all artists in that way.

I don't play or paint, but in my country I take care of some vineyard a couple of centuries old, at my expenses.

Of course I also enjoy the wine made from them and make no money out of it, I lose a little bit every year.

Should I be included in those that "build the cultural heritage" of my country, given that my country is the world's largest producer of wine?

Or am I simply adding a few thousand liters of wine to an already massive production, basically adding almost nothing to our "cultural heritage"?

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#132

Post by Retric »

3pt14159 wrote: post #128
ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

Implementing social security in the first place took massive social upheaval. UBI as a thought experiment is never going to happen, it would take a massive political movement or economic apocalypse.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#133

Post by NoboruWataya »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #63

Is it right to call this UBI? In Norway we have supported artists economically since at least the mid 1800s. Playwrights like Henrik Ibsen got paid by the government after decisions by the Parliament. This is payment for contributing specifically to the cultural enrichment of the country while UBI as a system has no strings attached.

No it's not right to call it UBI because it's not universal, and in that regard I would point out that the government is not calling it UBI, but merely "basic income": https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/080b9-minister-catherine...

Most governments (including the Irish government) have supported artists to some degree in the past, through grants, etc. I think the main difference is that this is intended to be broader support and not tied to specific projects.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#134

Post by jeroenhd »

ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

I suppose an art subsidy with no selection criteria whatsoever is open to anyone, so it's close to UBI at least.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#135

Post by soneil »

lelanthran wrote: post #47
krageon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framing everything as a reflection of short-term capitalistic gain is a travesty. Culture transcends your lifetime and probably the lifetime of the people that you are a part of. You ask what value there is in that, but I am curious what value your believe there could be in anything else without it.

My point was not that there is no value in it, my point was that there is already a considerable oversupply of it, so why buy more of it? Those people who have already managed to turn it into a fulltime job are more than sufficient to ensure that arts and culture exist. What exactly do you expect to see when more f/time practitioners are added to the existing mix?

What's cultural and what's profitable don't always overlap, so the question is which you want to preserve.

If I single out musicians - where I am on the west of Ireland, the cultural impact largely comes from street buskers and trad sessions in small pubs - not the profitable acts filling a stadium once every 5 years.

Given that the local scene is a honeypot for tourists, where as stage tours breezing through town probably extract more than they bring, it might actually be an overall profitable investment - even if the individual artists aren't.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#136

Post by cabalamat »

pembrook wrote: post #25
chrismorgan wrote: post #15

> two thousand arts and culture workers for a span of three years … earmarked €25 million for the plan … top recommendation … €10.50 per hour 3 years × 2,000 hours per year (estimate of full time employment) × €10.50 per hour × 2,000 people = €126 million, five times as much as is earmarked (even ignoring administrative costs). Perhaps it’s 400 rather than 2,000, perhaps it’s not full-time, perhaps the mention of the…

Sounds basically like a grant program, not UBI. However, slapping the phrase UBI on your program while it’s trendy is a genius way to “rebrand” something most governments already do. Politicians are the best marketers.

> Politicians are the best marketers

They are certainly accomplished liars.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#137

Post by rsynnott »

nix23 wrote: post #114
ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

Is "artist" even a occupation? No really, is that a quality thing or so? Is a NFT-Gorilla Creator a artist? The 3 star Cook? The aerobatics Pilot? Musician...the Haskell programmer? Would Banksy count as an artist from the beginning or just when he already sold stuff for millions?

Artists' income from art in Ireland is tax exempt up to 50k/year (this used to be a lot looser until someone noticed that _U2_ was benefiting from it), so Ireland has prior experience with determining what is and isn't art for tax purposes, anyway...

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#138

Post by barrucadu »

geocar wrote: post #130
lelanthran wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. But, at the end of the day it's still worth close to nothing, right? I enjoy art and music as much as anyone else but the reason those professions are so poorly paid is because the supply outstrips the demand considerably[1]. What value is there in asking taxpayers to pay for an increase the supply when there's alre…

> What value is there in asking taxpayers to pay for an increase the supply when there's already too much supply? When "taxpayers" refuse to subsidize non-taxpayers, they run the risk of those non-taxpayers murdering them; the "value" is that it directly prevents death and revolt. Some people just simply don't agree that people should have to die simply because there are too many people, either because they're (direc…

Come on, the alternative to taxpayers subsidising artists isn't that artists face a choice between death or revolt. It's that artists get a different source of income (which may require stopping being an artist).

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#139

Post by rsynnott »

chrismorgan wrote: post #15

> two thousand arts and culture workers for a span of three years … earmarked €25 million for the plan … top recommendation … €10.50 per hour 3 years × 2,000 hours per year (estimate of full time employment) × €10.50 per hour × 2,000 people = €126 million, five times as much as is earmarked (even ignoring administrative costs). Perhaps it’s 400 rather than 2,000, perhaps it’s not full-time, perhaps the mention of the…

So, some of it may be an assumption that:

- Some beneficiaries would otherwise be on jobseekers' allowance (208 eur/week)

- Many beneficiaries would not be full-time, and might be mixing this with a part-time job

- Many beneficiaries will drop out of the programme and get a normal job

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#140

Post by [deleted] »

3pt14159 wrote: post #128
ramblerman wrote: post #104

As others have mentioned this is mostly marketing and not UBI for many reasons but one thing that irks me particularly with this initiative is selecting candidates based on occupation. The *whole point* is to *not* select based on who is more or less deserving, that exists already and is called welfare.

The hard part is that UBI is extremely, extremely expensive. The variant I'm in favour of goes something like: 1. $12k / year to everyone 2. 50% flat tax (on non-UBI income) 3. Small federal land value tax on non-wilderness properties 4. Tax on non-resident property owners 5. UBI for citizens only (to mitigate people traveling here just to not work) But try passing that ^ in any major democracy. You can't. The reason…

[deleted]
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