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Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

artforum.com

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Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#41

Post by maxehmookau »

swarnie wrote: post #22
chrismorgan wrote: post #15

> two thousand arts and culture workers for a span of three years … earmarked €25 million for the plan … top recommendation … €10.50 per hour 3 years × 2,000 hours per year (estimate of full time employment) × €10.50 per hour × 2,000 people = €126 million, five times as much as is earmarked (even ignoring administrative costs). Perhaps it’s 400 rather than 2,000, perhaps it’s not full-time, perhaps the mention of the…

Quoted post unavailable.

It's a fairly well documented fact at this point that abuse of Diane Abbott's incorrect use of maths is driven mostly by misogynistic online abuse and hate-filled newspapers looking ot make a quick buck. I'm not suggesting that's you, but please don't perpetuate it.

You don't have to look far beyond the people in power right now to see politicians making stuff up or saying things that are completely untrue. Why is Diane in the firing line? She's not even an Irish politician.

- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/14/abuse-of-di...

- https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.com/2019/12/03/tories-nee...

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#42

Post by AndyMcConachie »

lelanthran wrote: post #19
arcticbull wrote: post #2

Well that's not really universal by any metric (you have to be an artist, there can't be too many applicants or you'll get subjected to lottery) but I'm still enthusiastic. It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. These feel more like government artist in residence grants.

> It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. But, at the end of the day it's still worth close to nothing, right? I enjoy art and music as much as anyone else but the reason those professions are so poorly paid is because the supply outstrips the demand considerably[1]. What value is there in asking taxpayers to pay for an increase the supply when there's alre…

Art is a public good. It's not something that gets produced and then consumed. It gets produced, and that production costs time and resources. But it is not comsumed like cheesecake or natural gas.

Taxes should be spent in a manner that serves society and its people. The sharing of art benefits everyone. Even art you don't like benefits you, because there is a good chance an artist you like will be influenced by it. If you want a thriving art scene you need people making art. Much of it might get thrown away and never reach an audience, but gems will emerge from it.

Even if one takes a completely selfish approach to art (ie, only art that I like is good art), there is benefit in having more artists making more art. As someone who does not live in Ireland I enjoy some art made in Ireland. So even I benefit from Ireland supporting its artists.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#44

Post by wizzwizz4 »

swarnie wrote: post #13
MrPatan wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll become an artist

Oh yes, i expect the definition of that word to expand massively. Are we still doing coffee and subway artists?

Fortunately, this is a testable prediction. If you can nail it down a bit, maybe you could register it somewhere like https://predictionbook.com/ ? After all, if you're right, having a track record to point to would increase your credibility.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#45

Post by headmelted »

paulannesley wrote: post #27
lelanthran wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. But, at the end of the day it's still worth close to nothing, right? I enjoy art and music as much as anyone else but the reason those professions are so poorly paid is because the supply outstrips the demand considerably[1]. What value is there in asking taxpayers to pay for an increase the supply when there's alre…

Art and cultural heritage may have worth outside that represented by short-term supply and demand?

I mean, OK, but one could also argue that the reason a given artist is struggling is because their work is not highly valued in the first place.

Maybe the artist is making under-appreciated contributions, or maybe their work is just not good. It's subjective, which means criticism is subjective too, but it seems a poor place to start with any UBI scheme executed in good faith.

I would think it would have more value as an experiment to start with some of the poorest people in a society and then measure their quality of life and economic contribution throughout and after the programme. If you could show a net-positive economic contribution during the programme, and a net-negative contribution before and after (as unlikely as I suspect that is to achieve) it would make it substantially easier to get popular support for UBI.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#46

Post by richrichardsson »

chrismorgan wrote: post #15

> two thousand arts and culture workers for a span of three years … earmarked €25 million for the plan … top recommendation … €10.50 per hour 3 years × 2,000 hours per year (estimate of full time employment) × €10.50 per hour × 2,000 people = €126 million, five times as much as is earmarked (even ignoring administrative costs). Perhaps it’s 400 rather than 2,000, perhaps it’s not full-time, perhaps the mention of the…

I've never really looked too closely at the idea of UBI, although I like the concept. I always assumed that any money you earn would then be deducted from future payments. With completely arbitrary numbers, let's say UBI was 1000€/month and I earned 500€ in a particular month, then next month my UBI payment would be reduced by that amount. If I earned 1500€ my next UBI payment would be zero, but the excess 500€ would not be rolled over. I may have completely misunderstood how UBI is supposed to work though.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#47

Post by lelanthran »

krageon wrote: post #37
lelanthran wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. But, at the end of the day it's still worth close to nothing, right? I enjoy art and music as much as anyone else but the reason those professions are so poorly paid is because the supply outstrips the demand considerably[1]. What value is there in asking taxpayers to pay for an increase the supply when there's alre…

Framing everything as a reflection of short-term capitalistic gain is a travesty. Culture transcends your lifetime and probably the lifetime of the people that you are a part of. You ask what value there is in that, but I am curious what value your believe there could be in anything else without it.

My point was not that there is no value in it, my point was that there is already a considerable oversupply of it, so why buy more of it?

Those people who have already managed to turn it into a fulltime job are more than sufficient to ensure that arts and culture exist. What exactly do you expect to see when more f/time practitioners are added to the existing mix?

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#48

Post by chongli »

lelanthran wrote: post #19
arcticbull wrote: post #2

Well that's not really universal by any metric (you have to be an artist, there can't be too many applicants or you'll get subjected to lottery) but I'm still enthusiastic. It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. These feel more like government artist in residence grants.

> It's always nice seeing countries look to support their artists in building their cultural heritage. But, at the end of the day it's still worth close to nothing, right? I enjoy art and music as much as anyone else but the reason those professions are so poorly paid is because the supply outstrips the demand considerably[1]. What value is there in asking taxpayers to pay for an increase the supply when there's alre…

Art produces huge positive externalities. This is the reason artists are the pioneers of gentrified neighbourhoods. They arrive when rent is low (all they can afford) and their product increases the desirability of the area. The artists themselves capture none of this value and often have to leave when rents go up.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#49

Post by andrepd »

maxehmookau wrote: post #41
swarnie wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

It's a fairly well documented fact at this point that abuse of Diane Abbott's incorrect use of maths is driven mostly by misogynistic online abuse and hate-filled newspapers looking ot make a quick buck. I'm not suggesting that's you, but please don't perpetuate it. You don't have to look far beyond the people in power right now to see politicians making stuff up or saying things that are completely untrue. Why is Di…

The Prime Minister of my country in the 1990s stumbled over some easy math in an interview. It is still a meme today ("é só fazer as contas"), even as he's currently Secretary-General of the UN.

>It's a fairly well documented fact at this point

I don't know how an opinion can be a well documented fact.

Re: Ireland to launch basic income program for artists

#50

Post by bloqs »

maxehmookau wrote: post #41
swarnie wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

It's a fairly well documented fact at this point that abuse of Diane Abbott's incorrect use of maths is driven mostly by misogynistic online abuse and hate-filled newspapers looking ot make a quick buck. I'm not suggesting that's you, but please don't perpetuate it. You don't have to look far beyond the people in power right now to see politicians making stuff up or saying things that are completely untrue. Why is Di…

A Guardian article quoting her party colleague isn't exactly an unbaised or even evidential source. Dianne Abbott is clearly capable in many areas, but the examples that follow her around persist precisely for that reason. She should have known better.
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