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An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

singlelunch.com

411–420 of 454 posts

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> inflation is a highly regressive tax Is it? I think a takeaway from Piketty's book was that inflation was one of the rare factors that slowed down or reversed wealth inequality. Intuitively it would make sense that people drowning in debt benefit from (moderate) inflation, especially if low wages get bumped in the process.

Yes that's a great point, as long as debt interest rates are fixed, inflation is good for people in debt. It's especially great for most home owners, but home ownership is largely a middle-class luxury. But that said a lot of the really bad debt that poor people have is variable rate anyway (and usually outrageous) like credit cards, payday loans, etc. Re wages: they tend to be sticky. Wages will get bumped up but it…

> Yes that's a great point, as long as debt interest rates are fixed, inflation is good for people in debt.

Variable interest rates should be illegal anyway. How can you commit to paying next year a sum that you cannot know? It works somewhat as long as everything is stable, but is a significant fragilisation factor once things go awry. Which they are bound to do, eventually. The answer to that is not to create even more instability in the form of speculative cryptocurrencies; it’s to have better regulations.

> Re wages: they tend to be sticky. Wages will get bumped up but it's almost always after the fact as a result of government reported inflation rates.

Also, wages in real terms haven’t gone up for 40 to 50 years now. Inflation is a tax on savings, so it still penalises the wealthy, but it is not as helpful for the middle class as it once was.

> It would definitely be interesting to hear about past examples where income inequality improved under inflation.

Piketty’s book has a couple of them. The gist of it is that most high inflation events reduce inequality by burning money. People who don’t have any are not burnt. Of course it does not mean that it is pleasant for them, or that the wealthy end up starving. But it does reduce inequality.

A total war is a good example as well, because then the state is going to take the money where it is, i.e. in well stuffed bank accounts, and an existential threat is important enough to make it politically feasible.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#412
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you think really. The poor who live from hand-to-mouth, do they really care about inflation as long as wages keep going up with it. It is not like they even aim to save anything. So prices going up if also their wages do have really net zero effect for them.

When do wages ever keep up with inflation? Wages are equivalent to a lagging indicator.

With a steady inflation, the lag does not matter. The current problem is that wages are not following, although inflation had been fairly consistent for a couple of decades (until SARS-CoV 2). Historically, this seems to be an anomaly.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#413
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look forward to seeing your math on that. But for a fair comparison you can't just look at "casinos to date" and "Bitcoin to date". After all, as Bitcoin proponents never tire of telling us, this is supposedly the early days.

Some of the most expensive casinos (just the building) to build are: Venetian Macau – $2.4 billion, Wynn Las Vegas – $2.7 billion, Resorts World Sentosa – $4.53 billion, Marina Bay Sands – $5.36 billion, CityCenter Las Vegas – $9 billion. That already likely costs more than the combined electricity used by Bitcoin so far, if it doesn't you can easily reach trillions by combining the costs of just Casino buildings. Mo…

In the case of buildings, that money went largely to engineers, workers, and materials. It’s not the best way of stimulating local economies (it’s fairly inefficient because of bribes and margins), but still much better than Bitcoin.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#415
post #212
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thats like, your opinion bro. In all seriousness I am ok with crypto punishing gamblers, eventually people will learn to stay away from it, or be forced to stay away from it because they have nothing left to gamble. I don't see how this is more morally repugnant than casinos which are legally accessible in most of the US.

>punishing gamblers, eventually people will learn to stay away from it Just like casinos?

Casinos are deemed acceptable and gamblers are (somewhat) protected instead. Instead of avoiding the bad situation, it makes it less bad. It’s just a different risk management strategy; prohibition would not be ideal either.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#416

Eh 20-ish years ago the shit happening on Island and Archipelago would blow most people’s minds. Undocumented, conditional, non-displayed order types. Routine wash trading. Shear-but-don’t skin multi-venue arbitrage. The ECNs were the Wild West. Smoke-filled dark pools. Island and Arca are NASDAQ and NYSE now. But Ben, US equities have intrinsic value unlike this BTC garbage! Well unless they pay no dividend, have du…

Tulip garbage? Tulip Mania lasted like 6 months, Bitcoin has been running for over 13 years. Don’t get me wrong tho, I do agree anything not being Bitcoin is garbage.

Tulip trading existed for many years before Tulip mania, and it was a profitable business that continues even today. Only the mania part was crazy

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#417
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he put it in in June when it was 31k, he'd have increased it 30% now, double if he sold in November. Not too bad

And if he'd bought last March he'd be down 30%. Bitcoin didn't have a stellar 2021.

I wouldn't count "March" as summer

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#418

Eh 20-ish years ago the shit happening on Island and Archipelago would blow most people’s minds. Undocumented, conditional, non-displayed order types. Routine wash trading. Shear-but-don’t skin multi-venue arbitrage. The ECNs were the Wild West. Smoke-filled dark pools. Island and Arca are NASDAQ and NYSE now. But Ben, US equities have intrinsic value unlike this BTC garbage! Well unless they pay no dividend, have du…

Might you or someone else explain what these things and how they are used/exploited? > Undocumented, conditional, non-displayed order types. Routine wash trading. Shear-but-don’t skin multi-venue arbitrage.

So electronic financial markets (whether ARCA/NYSE or Binance) have a number of ways that they can advantage certain participants at the expense of others. One of many is to make certain types of orders difficult or impossible for certain actors.

Broadly speaking lots of very conventional order types are "conditional" (limit orders are technically conditional), but various exchanges have at various times allowed the condition to effectively become "execute this order if I make money on it", which is a wealth transfer from those who can't place that order to those who can. "Displayed" or "displayed size" basically means that other market participants can see roughly "someone is offering to buy X amount at Y price, if I move quickly I can take them up on that". "Hidden" or "non-displayed" means that an order might execute in front of another but other participants can't see that before they act. "Non-displayed" isn't necessarily a bad thing either, but it creates scope for sophisticated participants to further set up advantages for themselves.

The "undocumented" part is the real killer: that's basically the idea that there's a secret API for playing with cheat codes that the exchange only makes accessible to certain actors. That's straight fucked up (and tends towards illegal as markets become more mature).

"Wash Trading" is roughly the idea that (typically) via intermediaries of one kind or another that an actor effectively trades with themselves. An actor might want to do this for several reasons, but a big one (maybe the main one) is to create the appearance of market activity where there isn't any legitimate commerce going on.

"Arbitrage" I think is technically defined as something like: "a transaction or transactions guaranteed to be profitable", but in practice the term gets applied more loosely than that. In the sense I meant: if gold is 100 quibbles in Foobarnia and 50 quibbles in Boofarnia, someone will buy a ton of gold in Boofarnia and ship it to Foobarnia and pocket the 50 quibbles, raising the price in the cheap place and lowering it in the expensive place and fairly quickly this gets you to 75 quibbles in both places (or whatever, there are transaction costs). There's an old quip: "you can shear a sheep many times, but you can skin him only once". If an arbitrageur has unique access to one or both markets, they can play the long game and just bleed profit out without actually providing the social utility of equalizing prices.

People do all this shit and more in practically every electronic market on Earth. It's quite a bit more regulated and monitored in mature markets like US equities and quite a bit more flagrant in e.g. crypto DeFi exchanges but how much net "rich connected people taking non-rich, non-connected people's money" goes on in one vs. the other is quite the controversy, as you can tell from the other comments in this thread.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#419

Eh 20-ish years ago the shit happening on Island and Archipelago would blow most people’s minds. Undocumented, conditional, non-displayed order types. Routine wash trading. Shear-but-don’t skin multi-venue arbitrage. The ECNs were the Wild West. Smoke-filled dark pools. Island and Arca are NASDAQ and NYSE now. But Ben, US equities have intrinsic value unlike this BTC garbage! Well unless they pay no dividend, have du…

So there's a question fairly deep in the thread asking me to define what I meant by the terms in the first paragraph. I'm reposting my answer up here to both clarify what I meant if it's not clear, and to invite those more knowledgable than myself to correct any ways in which I'm misusing the terminology or otherwise saying something untrue:

So electronic financial markets (whether ARCA/NYSE or Binance) have a number of ways that they can advantage certain participants at the expense of others. One of many is to make certain types of orders difficult or impossible for certain actors. Broadly speaking lots of very conventional order types are "conditional" (limit orders are technically conditional), but various exchanges have at various times allowed the condition to effectively become "execute this order if I make money on it", which is a wealth transfer from those who can't place that order to those who can. "Displayed" or "displayed size" basically means that other market participants can see roughly "someone is offering to buy X amount at Y price, if I move quickly I can take them up on that". "Hidden" or "non-displayed" means that an order might execute in front of another but other participants can't see that before they act. "Non-displayed" isn't necessarily a bad thing either, but it creates scope for sophisticated participants to further set up advantages for themselves.

The "undocumented" part is the real killer: that's basically the idea that there's a secret API for playing with cheat codes that the exchange only makes accessible to certain actors. That's straight fucked up (and tends towards illegal as markets become more mature).

"Wash Trading" is roughly the idea that (typically) via intermediaries of one kind or another that an actor effectively trades with themselves. An actor might want to do this for several reasons, but a big one (maybe the main one) is to create the appearance of market activity where there isn't any legitimate commerce going on.

"Arbitrage" I think is technically defined as something like: "a transaction or transactions guaranteed to be profitable", but in practice the term gets applied more loosely than that. In the sense I meant: if gold is 100 quibbles in Foobarnia and 50 quibbles in Boofarnia, someone will buy a ton of gold in Boofarnia and ship it to Foobarnia and pocket the 50 quibbles, raising the price in the cheap place and lowering it in the expensive place and fairly quickly this gets you to 75 quibbles in both places (or whatever, there are transaction costs). There's an old quip: "you can shear a sheep many times, but you can skin him only once". If an arbitrageur has unique access to one or both markets, they can play the long game and just bleed profit out without actually providing the social utility of equalizing prices.

People do all this shit and more in practically every electronic market on Earth. It's quite a bit more regulated and monitored in mature markets like US equities and quite a bit more flagrant in e.g. crypto DeFi exchanges but how much net "rich connected people taking non-rich, non-connected people's money" goes on in one vs. the other is quite the controversy, as you can tell from the other comments in this thread.

Re: An anatomy of Bitcoin price manipulation

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always jealousy. People see someone they view as "undeserving" doing better than themselves and react with hatred.

I just want this environmental disaster to end. If they'd just outlaw proof-of-work cryptocurrencies, I'd shut up and you can continue gambling your proof-of-stake digital chuck-e-cheese tokens to your heart's content. But you're wasting more power than Argentina to do it. So yes, I hate this garbage and want it to fail.

I wonder how much energy YouTube or Facebook use compared to Bitcoin?

We could argue that Facebook and YouTube are only providing entertainment value. They don't do anything especially novel or provide critical infrastructure.

Rockets that deliver payloads into space are INCREDIBLY bad for the environment. But it provides critical services and infrastructure for now and the future.

Bitcoin provides a novel, decentralised, secure, electronic digital currency. It's being used for that purpose currently.

The FUD is unreal. We accept that certain use cases can persist and use tonnes of energy, but others we think is a crime against humanity.

Use of energy should not be a measure of shame on its own. What use case is it providing now and in the future for that energy usage?

The future will require a lot more energy for things we don't even know about yet. We need to ensure reliable renewable energy will provide for us now and in the future. We should not shut down new technologies just because it uses a lot of energy. When energy is cheap and clean and plentiful, we shouldn't worry about using it.

Nuclear Fusion reactor technology currently uses much more energy than it provides in output. But when that technology is viable it will help us to produce reliable and clean energy. Should we outlaw nuclear fusion because it uses shitloads of energy for no benefit (currently)?

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