Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#191

Post by Daishiman » Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 4:29 AM UTC

twofornone wrote: post #161

Daishiman wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you have not been reading a single thing coming from the official sources because nobody has stated that vaccines do much against mild disease in Omicron, but they do prevent the hospital system from being saturated with cases and drastically reduce death rates. If at this point you're not aware of this, which has been repeated over and over again in media, you should reconsider your sources of information.

As of the posting of this comment, from the white house : > While so-called “breakthrough infections” among this group do happen, they remain the exception: In fact, recent data indicates there is only 1 confirmed positive case per 5,000 fully vaccinated Americans per week. The startup I work for must be incredibly unlucky given that 7+/14 vaccinated employees have recently tested positive if the odds really are 1 in…

> The startup I work for must be incredibly unlucky given that 7+/14 vaccinated employees have recently tested positive if the odds really are 1 in 5000. I'm sure my anecdote is not unique.

Now do the comparison of hospitalization and death of the unvaccinated against the vaccinated.

> The same way that people, and doctors, have been biased against reporting side effects. Yeah, sure, its just anecdote, except there's a hell of a lot of anecdote going around and those crazy conspiracy theorists have already been quietly proven right about vaccines interfering with womens' monthly cycles, among other suspicions.

There's a ton of papers, literally coming out every week, on studies of side effects of vaccines. The conclusions are always the same: minor and predictable side effects, with a few exceptions that were studied and analyzed and adjusted for risk, still demonstrating that the rewards go far and beyond.

> It is incredibly difficult to properly evaluate vaccines when your test subjects and their doctors have been indoctrinated by strong messaging regarding the test's presumed safety. I'm not suggesting that it was entirely intentional (though partly on behalf of pharma) but at this point all of the official data is suspect due to an emergent faith-like bias.

I'm sorry, you don't have a single clue of what you're talking about. There's papers that have been published by every single government, relevant NGO, hospitals, literally the entirety of modern medicine dedicated towards working on this. The conclusions are always the same. Stop talking about things you don't understand. You don't have the knowledge or capacity to judge the biases of the medical system. There are tons of qualified experts who are more than happy to talk about the failures, doubts, and validated skepticism of big pharma in a myriad of drugs and medical trials. Vaccines are just not it.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#192

Post by Daishiman » Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 4:33 AM UTC

aakresearch wrote: post #149

Daishiman wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there's a lot of baggage left over with a lot of regulations that were made at the beginning and which don't make much sense now. It annoys me. It's not the end of the world, and much in the same way that we had vaccine passports and quarantines throughout history when diseases came and went, once we get over with this I trust we work to get rid of the baggage.

As somebody who was bullied in my childhood and early youth, I can say that there is no way one could go back to their bullies and collaborate with them politely. The only way to "get rid of the baggage" is to cut these people out of one's life, completely. No cooperation possible, unless a genuine profuse apology is given, and convincing demonstration of good intention is presented. The other way is to become a bull…

> As somebody who was bullied in my childhood and early youth, I can say that there is no way one could go back to their bullies and collaborate with them politely. The only way to "get rid of the baggage" is to cut these people out of one's life, completely. No cooperation possible, unless a genuine profuse apology is given, and convincing demonstration of good intention is presented. The other way is to become a bully, which is not an option for many.

From one person who was bullied and now manages to work quite successfully with government and private institutions, you don't deal with institutions and collectives the same was as you do an individual. It is a useless comparison.

> And before accusations of intent to kill grandma, I haven't stepped out of my house for two years now, such repulsive reaction I have to masks and some other "measures". Do not and did not care about covid a tiniest bit. There is no light in sight, so I'm preparing to take my life, if not consumed by ailments, old and new, that flared up. If, by some miracle, "we get over this" and I'm alive, then all the time second-guessing each fellow human on whether they were actual bully or accidental accomplice is not a great perspective either. But bullies do not deserve cooperation or compassion. So the only way forward I see is absolute sabotage of all government initiatives. All within the boundaries of law and regulations, of course.

Get some psychological help dude, this has nothing to do with science or medicine.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#193

Post by kcplate » Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 4:33 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #45

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When was the last time anyone actually trusted a government? My feeling is that people trust the government to the extent it does things their perceived enemies dislike. It's not about evaluating what's good for yourself or others; just knowing that your enemy dislikes it is a good enough signal that it's the right thing to do. Also, if your perceived enemy likes something that happens, that means it was automatica…

When considering how much power the federal government should ideally have, it’s wise to always remember that: one day, a party that you dislike will wield that power. Don’t think about what good you could do with all that power (because you’ll likely undershoot your positive intent anyway), but think about what bad someone who thought the opposite of what you want could do. It’s easier to destroy things than to buil…

I wish more people considered this, but sadly most don’t.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#194

Post by nojokes » Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 4:37 AM UTC

twofornone wrote: post #136

virgulino wrote: post #44

Something is not right. CNN reported the same study, with contradictory quotes from the same doctor: Fourth vaccine dose boosts antibodies, researchers say, but likely not enough to prevent Omicron breakthrough infections http://lite.cnn.com/en/article/h_69134b5be555abcb7c1609154ab... --- healthpolicy-watch.news ----- According to Regev-Yochay, the third dose resulted in “much higher antibodies, neutralization and th…

Quoted post unavailable.

No post body was provided.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#195

Post by Daishiman » Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 4:37 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #135

cthalupa wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I can just dump a bunch of links to studies and details about how boosters are highly effective, even for young people. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-... https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/10/1/23/pdf https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/01/no-omicron-im... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01575-4 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.13.21267748v... https:…

> I mean, I can just dump a bunch of links to studies and details about how boosters are highly effective, even for young people. And I can find dozens more. This isn't baseball cards. The person with the most URLs doesn't win. You have to read the data and understand what it says. You clearly don't, because you're citing pop-science sources such as "The Harvard Gazette", and irrelevant papers about viral loads in br…

Given that a pediatric hospitalization is a hellish and expensive affair and early long COVID may have life-long effects, while a vaccine is cheap and trivially accessible, how is that still _not_ a winning strategy? _Just_ 8000 vaccinations to prevent a hospitalization? How could you even consider that to be bad? Are we in a surplus of hospital beds or guardians or am I the only person that lives in a metro area where routine hospital procedures have to be cancelled and there's a 15% rate of absenteeism due to Covid, which likely includes parents that have to take care of their sick children?

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#196

Post by nojokes » Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 4:38 AM UTC

loeg wrote: post #9

If this source is legit — and I’ve never heard of it, so who knows — the headline is missing a pretty significant word: > A fourth COVID-19 booster mRNA vaccine has proven ineffective against Omicron infection

Not sure about this source but this one is https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-fin...

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#197

Post by Daishiman » Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 4:38 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #109

Daishiman wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid... .

You should probably read the data, and not just the title and conclusions: > Among those previously infected, until the emergence of the Omicron variant, the cumulative incidence of COVID19 was not significantly different between those vaccinated and unvaccinated, even at almost a year of follow-up. > However, among those with prior COVID-19, vaccination was not associated with significantly lower risk of COVID-19 in…

So at the very worst it does nothing. How is that bad? I don't want to go around checking if people had or did not have Covid, which a lot of people are prone to lying about.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#198

Post by kcplate » Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 4:42 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #177

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s hard to get good data anymore since so many people are vaccinated. I’ve heard one news outlet report that some scientists were trying to analyse the unvaccinated data only and initial findings were showing Omicron may be just as bad as Alpha. But small sample size etc etc so we really don’t know.

There are tens of millions of unvaccinated in the US alone. Plenty of data to be had.

But the meaningful data which is increased illness severity and higher chances of death are concentrated in 65+ age brackets which are 95%/88%/62% (1/2/3 shot vaccinated) in the US. As you fall in ages it’s less % vaccinated, but also the chance of a severe case among the unvaccinated drops too…dramatically.

So yes, tens of millions unvaccinated, but also tens of millions that can’t really be measured as effectively either.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#199

Post by nojokes » Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 4:44 AM UTC

Jimmc414 wrote: post #153

mmmrtl wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

stopping transmission is an impossibly high bar. Vaccines reduce transmission. Really really shockingly unexpectedly well for the first few months, in previous waves, but that sterilizing antibody-mediated immunity wanes. The booster restores that efficacy against transmission, but omicron's immune evasion means that even a booster only gets to ~70% efficacy against cases/transmission, compared to the surprise findin…

I don't believe that is accurate. Several studies show no significant difference between the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated. Here is one https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-sim... Also, recent reports from Denmark seem to indicate that vaccinated at best have equal protection against Omicron. Too early to declare this as fact, but the initial data actually favors a slight negative effi…

Ct value is just a proxy to viral load and it has been found that the same Ct value results in less cultivable virus for vaccinated.

This negative effect is really most likely because of some confounding factors as others have said. I have seen claimed ADE as always but for that to be true I would expect recent vaccination to offer less protection not more and boosting offer less protection and not more.

Re: Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

#200

Post by nojokes » Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 4:47 AM UTC

Jimmc414 wrote: post #157

jollybean wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you have misunderstood the statement. Vaccines reduce infections considerably. This is something the CDC has repeated over and over. From the CDC's website [1]: "In October, the unvaccinated were 5x more likely to become infected." Not only that - 'breakthrough infections' of the vaccinated are more likely to be less severe, and infection severity is correlated with shedding, meaning, even the 'vaxxed and inf…

>Because you have misunderstood the statement. “Our vaccines are working exceptionally well,” Walensky told CNN in an interview on Thursday, Aug. 5. “They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death – they prevent it. But what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission.” I did not interpret her statement or misunderstand it. I quoted her directly. Also, R0 with Omicron is on par with m…

R9 for measles is even higher - 10-12 but it has long incubation period that makes is much slower. Omicron is the fastest spreading virus in history so far.