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The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

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Re: The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding a book on a sidewalk doesn't mean you can scan it and legally distribute it.

Yes but if said book was used in the commission of a crime there is a certain level where it doesn't matter. Don't plug shit into private networks unless you want it reverse engineered. This falls under the fair use exceptions (learning what software is doing / was doing to your network). The copyright holder can take it up with whoever they licensed it to, there is a reason a lot of them read "not to be used in the…

Yeah, it'd be a pretty brazen or stupid hacker who tried to sue you for copyright infringement for code that if they claimed ownership of, provides proof of their illegal activity.

Re: The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a while the easiest and fastest way to identify a 1U server in a rack of 40 was to SSH in and type: eject

Wait, was it common for 1U servers to have optical drives back in the day?

If by back in the day you mean a decade ago then yes.

Re: The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

#243
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any idea on a good, at-home or small network alternative?

Having a list of allowed MAC addresses, enforced per-port by a managed switch (or at least by the DHCP server and router), is a first step, though naturally it's easy to spoof a MAC address.

> though naturally it's easy to spoof a MAC address.

I used to live in an apartment that was within high gain antenna range of the local McDonalds Free WiFi. I had a antenna/wifi adaptor set up in promiscuous mode to listen to all traffic on their network, looking for MAC addresses that connected for a while, then stopped connecting. It'd then switch to that MAC address and BitTorrent until the 500MB daily cap per device ran out, then go back to monitoring mode looking for someone else who'd agreed to the captive portal T&Cs had their MAC address whitelisted and then left. I think I got pretty much all of Game Of Thrones that way...

For a little while, I was monitoring my own home network, and one thing I tried was running map against any reconnection of a known/allowed MAC address, to try and confirm it at least looked like the same device. A RaspberryPi connecting using the MAC address of a phone or a MacBook stood out like a sore thumb. That never turned out useful enough for me to bother wrapping it up into a project I kept running or would have shared.

Re: The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

#244
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a suggestion for a change to treating network security?

Treat every computer like it's connected to the internet. Probably by actually connecting it to the internet. Since the idea that you can keep people out of your network is probably more dangerous in the long term.

Yep. Anything that can connect _out_ to the internet can be misused to connect _in from_ the internet. All it takes is a human or technology flaw on the inside to "breach" your outbound connections only security policy. As a whole bunch of unwitting Log4J users recently found out. Reverse SSH Tunnels aren't all that different from Remote Access Trojans.

Re: The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

#245
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like a neat project but the intro/faq should probably be a bit more self-critical to point out weaknesses. The “nope, it’s protected by TLS” answers ignore the fact that anyone attacking this could also have attacked the PKI. If someone gets the client cert and key, they can probably fake the request to get the decryption password. I’m assuming that client key isn’t protected by a password, since then that woul…

> If someone gets the client cert and key, they can probably fake the request to get the decryption password. Yes, that is a weakness, which is openly addressed in the FAQ: https://www.recompile.se/mandos/man/intro.8mandos#quick TLDR: It only works if an attacker is pretty quick about it. See also here: https://www.recompile.se/mandos/man/intro.8mandos#security > And what about the vector where someone attacks the CA…

> That’s a feature. A security system should fail closed.

Of course, but there should at least be a mention of the fact that you need to tune the fail-closed parameters to take your availability into consideration. I appreciate that the various attacks would have to be done "pretty quick" according to the FAQ but the definition of "pretty quick" is necessarily countered by what kind of guarantees you can make about your availability (of the server(s) and the client), and this isn't mentioned. If a 30 second network failure causes the server to refuse keys to the client from that point on, but you can't guarantee that level of network availability (taking into account things like replacement of network switches and other types of maintenance), the definition of "pretty quick" may be too quick. It's a very direct and explicit tradeoff between security and availability and that concept is absent from the intro/FAQ. As a mental exercise, consider how you'd answer the FAQ "So I should set my timeouts super low for better security?"

Again, I'm not trying to be a picky ass, and I think the project is cool. I just think this is a topic that non-security-folks don't necessarily think about automatically, and this is the opportunity to make them think about it. The entire doc sounds like "faster timeout == better" and it would be very unfortunate for someone to configure and deploy this based on that understanding.

PS your other responses to my nitpicks were great, and somehow I missed the entry about stealing the client key being possible but having to be done very quickly. Thumbs up. I'm curious about what you mean by saying you aren't using "x509 keys" though. You must be generating a self-signed x509 cert containing the client's pubkey in order to do TLS. The packaging of the key itself isn't really relevant, is it? The "cert validation" on either side doesn't really care much about the contents of the cert other than the pubkey encoded therein, but you still do actually have to create x509 certs using those keys unless you've completely butchered the TLS stack. Right?

Re: The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. The programs themselves are generally good, as far as I’ve experienced, but the culture around them is often quite toxic. Many kids are treated like race horses. I’m not sure how effective they are on net. Most highly successful people seem like autodidacts that end up finding the resources they need one way or another. Would guess the best way to create more of those people is just to keep a lot of do…

Culture overrun by rich overachievers gaming the selection system?

That’s a fairly blunt description, but I think it’s roughly accurate. I think there are plenty of middle income and low income overachievers in there as well. Recent immigrants can be incredibly demanding and hard on kids who might not be naturally inclined to pursue that kind of thing without external pressure, as can competitive suburbanites.

But by trying to mitigate the risk of toxicity you can go too far in the other direction and end up not pushing smart kids to reach their full potential, which is also bad. Striking the right balance is hard.

Re: The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

#247

Reminds me of this[1] good old quote from the IRC days hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is. [1]: http://bash.org/?5273

I think the modern version of this is forgetting where a script, cron, lambda or whatever is running from.

I have something that sends me an occasional email. I haven't needed it in years, but it's not in any of the AWS regions I remember ever using. Nor in the obvious places I might have put it playing around with azure or google cloud or whatever. I'm sure I could find it if I really tried but t only emails me once or twice a year so I just let it be.

Re: The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

#248
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like a neat project but the intro/faq should probably be a bit more self-critical to point out weaknesses. The “nope, it’s protected by TLS” answers ignore the fact that anyone attacking this could also have attacked the PKI. If someone gets the client cert and key, they can probably fake the request to get the decryption password. I’m assuming that client key isn’t protected by a password, since then that woul…

(The other coauthor here.) Teddyh's answer describes some of the technical aspects, through I would like to add the security scenarios that Mandos works to address. Any security measure is in one way or another designed with known threats, assets and costs/outcomes. If one operates a bunch of servers with FDE in a server room, getting there every time there is a need to reboot is a significant problem. To mention a f…

> If the server hall loses both primary and backup power, there is a real risk that the administrator does need to travel there to bring the machines back up. That would be one of the major trade offs, through I would still recommend administrators to do that, compared to the risk of an unencrypted disk getting lost, stolen, or cases where someone comes in and takes all the servers.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. My nitpick is just basically requesting the doc talk about this being a conscious tradeoff where your infra availability and your lack of tolerance for frequent fail-closed events might lead you to intentionally weaken the security guarantees by lengthening the timeouts. In other words, you set the timeouts as short as you can tolerate, based on your infra.

Re: The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>he was tracking the movement data of the boss to avoid him whenever possible. Wow, imagine hating your boss so much you go to so much creative and illegal lengths (that can backfire against you) to track him, instead of using same skills legally to finding a better job. I just don't get, something doesn't feel right about this being the true reason. To me it looks more like he wanted a covert backdoor in the company…

> Wow, imagine hating your boss so much you go to so much creative and illegal lengths (that can backfire against you) to track him, instead of using same skills legally to finding a better job. I once worked at a place where one of the founders would too often get the shits with someone or some team, and become a micro managing asshole for a few weeks. I wrote a python script to run on the wifi router to monitor for…

How did that founder feel about it?

And what did the employees do with the information? Leave the building?

Re: The curious case of the Raspberry Pi in the network closet (2019)

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but if said book was used in the commission of a crime there is a certain level where it doesn't matter. Don't plug shit into private networks unless you want it reverse engineered. This falls under the fair use exceptions (learning what software is doing / was doing to your network). The copyright holder can take it up with whoever they licensed it to, there is a reason a lot of them read "not to be used in the…

Yeah, it'd be a pretty brazen or stupid hacker who tried to sue you for copyright infringement for code that if they claimed ownership of, provides proof of their illegal activity.

If the author was not the person who planted the device, they'd have a decent case. If person A throws person B's cellphone through your window, does that permit you to post person B's nudes online?
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